Jason Knight 0:00 Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm your host, Jason Knight and on each episode of this podcast, I'll be having inspiring conversations with passionate product people. I'll be talking to thought leaders and practitioners in and around product management to help you but the right products and build them right. If this sounds like an initiative you might support I've got something to put on your task list for straight after this episode. You can head over to OneKnightInProduct.com, where you can sign up to the mailing list, subscribe on your favourite podcast app or follow the podcast on your favourite social media platform and guarantee you never miss another episode again. Now on the last episode, we gave JIRA a bit of a kicking and now we're back to have a go with the other foot, talking about stepping away from legacy disconnected systems and getting that delightful user experience that you always dreamed about. We talk about leading a product team through hyper growth at a quadruple unicorn, some of the things you might need to do to keep the product culture alive and what you might need to change along the way as you scale. Talking of scale, we also take a look at product ops and see if it's fair to label them as just process people or whether they're strategic enablers for the business. For all this and much more please join us on One Knight in Product. So my guest tonight is Brian Shen. Brian's a self described adventurous eater, former movie columnist and stratovolcano climber who came down from the firey mountain, brushed the dust off and started his next climb to the somewhat less picturesque summit of product management. Brian's passionate about making things and is now doing just that as Product Director and Head of Product Operations at ClickUp, an all in one suite to manage people, projects and everything in between. I guarantee you've seen an advertisement for them somewhere today. They boldly claim to be able to save you one day a week, which sounds fabulous, but let's hope it's a weekday. Hi Brian, how are you tonight? Brian Shen 1:43 Hey, Jason, I'm doing well. Thanks. How are you? Jason Knight 1:44 I'm fabulous. Thank you very much. So first things first, you don't have to look far to see a ClickUp advertisement. As I said, it's kind of all over the place at the moment. And for full disclosure, I use ClickUp at work. But for the benefit of everyone else, what does ClickUp do? Brian Shen 2:02 Yeah, absolutely. ClickUp is an all in one productivity platform that is transforming the way teams work together, giving you back the most valuable resource that you have, which is time in our opinion, because it can never be replaced. Historically, the industry has really rewarded point solutions that go deep into a specific vertical, like engineering or professional services. That's led to customers buying multiple products, to put their teams into silos and really reducing collaboration overall. In the end, that cost them time and we want to give them that time back. So with ClickUp all your tools like tasks, docs, goals, and now even whiteboards are all in one place so that you can pull in your work, wherever you are in our ecosystem, and collaborate seamlessly with your team. We're continuously building out our ecosystem, so that any team, whether you're a team of two people, or 1000s of people, whether they're technical or non technical, can see all of ClickUp. Jason Knight 3:01 Nice, so you're kind of sitting there at the hub of everything, and trying to make everyone's life easier, which is a fantastic aim. But that also sounds like a pretty tricky thing to get right. You know, there are so many different things that that people can do so many different things that people want to do. And I guess, before we go into some of those things, another tool that pops into my mind when I think about a, kind of, one tool to try and rule them all you start thinking about things like Jira. Everyone famously hates Jira, or at least grudgingly uses it. And a lot of people say that it's bloated and tries to do too much of everything. And that's a way that ClickUp could go, I guess, because of course, if you're trying to do everything, you're gonna end up having to put a lot of stuff in. So how do you stop that happening? I mean, I guess you have to be very intentional. But like, is that on your mind? Brian Shen 3:51 Yes, absolutely. It's definitely on our minds. We don't want to become a super bloated app with poor UX. So when we think about our platform, we really over index on a couple of things. One is moving fast, but never compromising on elegant UI. Number two is really listening to our users intently and reacting to their needs as quickly as possible, and being as transparent as possible with them even more so than our competitors. And number three, ensuring our suite of products work seamlessly together versus being grown from different systems. Now, if you look at Jira, they have a couple different systems that they've cobbled together, but they don't necessarily work seamlessly, right? And so we want to solve that problem as well. At the end of the day, though, Jira, in our view is a point solution. It's really targeted at engineers, and sometimes product managers. But it really doesn't allow you to collaborate with your non technical stakeholders, or allow other teams like operations or marketing teams, or even Professional Services teams to collaborate seamlessly. And so we are trying to serve those different use cases, and those different personas in order to provide that single hub for all of your work across departments in your company. And with that, I think we can really differentiate from the players like Jira, Jason Knight 5:19 But do you consider Jira your main competitor? Or are you also targeting other more traditional task management things like Trello, or Asana and some of the other project management tools? Do you see all of those is your competitive landscape? Or is it just Jira? Brian Shen 5:33 It's definitely not just Jira. We do want to compete against those competitors, we have a really broad competitive set. It includes the players that you mentioned. But we want to go broader than that, right? It's not just about task management. It's not just about serving the engineers, it's about serving any type of workflow. Anything that relates to work can be accomplished inside of ClickUp. Jason Knight 6:00 But that must make it quite tricky to do user research, right? Because your user personas are basically... everyone, like, do you target research at particular segments of that, or you literally, kind of, just going after all those different people that same time and trying to find out what they all need? Brian Shen 6:16 Historically, when we first started ClickUp, we looked for the commonalities to build out our foundation. Regardless of what team you're on, regardless of what industry you're in, there are certain key things that every team needs to accomplish, like collaboration, or communicating their ideas. So we focused on those first. We believe in the philosophy of progress towards perfection. So we believe that there are incremental improvements that we can make today that will take us closer to our vision and closer to solving the needs of our problems. But we're not trying to reach perfection today, we believe it's possible in the future. So when we look at these different segments, we may not solve 100% of the use cases in the near term, but we will get there. We're doing our best to find the common points to solve across many use cases like engineering, like marketing teams, like professional services, and delivering those features as quickly as we can. Jason Knight 7:16 But that leads to some interesting prioritisation discussions but, you know, as long as you're prioritising my stuff, that's the most important thing. So you're the Director of Product Work Management at ClickUp, which obviously is a part of the broader team. But what is it that you're specifically working on with your team at ClickUp? And which features or parts of the platform does that cover? Brian Shen 7:39 Yeah, at ClickUp, my department covers three main groups. So the first group is product management, which serves our agile and waterfall use cases, our hierarchy, and our core unit of work, which is currently called tasks. Hierarchy refers to the way that you organise your work. So things like our spaces, folders, lists, etc. The second group that I manage is our work collaboration group. They focus on things like docs and whiteboards, so really products that extend our ecosystem and allow our users to share their ideas and collaborate in these multiplayer environments. The third group is our automations, integrations and dashboards team. They really helped extend ClickUp's capabilities and allow users to gain insights about their work. Jason Knight 8:29 Excellent. But I also understand that you're looking after product operations. Is that fair? Brian Shen 8:33 That's very true. So I also manage the product operations team. And they're currently focused on a couple of areas. One is focused on voice of the customer. So within this voice of the customer focus, we've got people who are managing our community. So really going out to our customer feedback boards, to understand what feature requests are, what negative sentiment there might be, what positive sentiment there might be, and reporting that back to the product team so we know how to take action. We have another group that's also focused on voice of the customer, but they're looking at kind of systems design and understanding how to create those feedback loops for us. So we know what customers care about, and how we synthesise those inputs, whether it be from marketing, from sales or success, to generate that holistic point of view to inform our product roadmap. The second group of product operations is really focused on release operations. So they are helping us hone in on what's actually going to be released and empowering our go to market teams to be able to take action and do their jobs even better. Jason Knight 9:41 So that sounds very cross product, as in, it's not like you've got a product operations team for each of those verticals that you talked about earlier. Right? Is that more of a function that supports all of the different product pillars that you have at the moment? Brian Shen 9:55 Currently, yes, that's the model. That may change in the future as we learn more about how this team operates. It's currently in its infancy. But the team is constantly growing and we're constantly iterating on our process. Jason Knight 10:09 Yeah, maybe we'll come back to a little bit more about product ops in a minute, because I know this very on trend and also slightly controversial topic in some quarters, and I shouldn't bypass the opportunity to cause a few more controversies. But before that, it'd be good to understand, obviously, this is a product management podcast, and you work in product, and you've got a tool that could be used to help build products as we do my job. So do you use ClickUp to build ClickUp? Brian Shen 10:38 Yes, we absolutely use ClickUp to build ClickUp. We believe in dogfooding, just as much as any other company. One of the things that we love about dogfooding is that we can really understand what our customers are feeling day to day. So if ClickUp is slower than normal, we know that it's slower than normal. If we find a missing feature, we know that it's a missing feature for a reason. One of the things that people don't know about ClickUp is that it actually grew out of an internal tool that the founders Zeb and Alex had created to run their own company before ClickUp was actually ClickUp. And so it was originally solving a personal pain point. They had been working with their team, they had subscribed to a bunch of point solutions, and that caused silos in their team. And so we really carried that mentality through to today, product managers mine for ideas and their own workflows. We solicit opinions and feedback from other teams inside of ClickUp, to understand what different functions might want to do their jobs better. And because we're productivity nerds, and collaboration nerds, we've tried all the other tools in the past. And so we're really designing for ourselves a lot of the time. And as a result, we find some of the most innovative features that way. Jason Knight 11:54 Yeah, but let's talk about those features, then. And again, with the fair warning that I'm using some of these features myself, but from your perspective, and as a product guy yourself, like, what are some of the ways that you can really effectively use a tool like yours to help turbocharge product development? Like? Yeah, because we're sitting there saying that this is something that enables us to do all these things, get all this time back. And there's obviously a lot of task management and there's a lot of organisation, and you can use it to run projects. But how can you use it to very specifically add value to your product development process? Brian Shen 12:27 It's a really good question. So, as a product team, we live heavily in tasks and docs. We use docs to do a number of things. One is... our product briefs live inside of docs, it allows us to collaborate line by line and give feedback. It also allows us to drop in Looms or clips, if you use ClickUp's clips feature. It also allows us to drop in Figma files or our design files, and keep everything in one place so that the engineers can reference our briefs for those requirements. And our product marketing team can reference the business case and understand why we're working on a feature. So that artefact kind of lives in multiple places inside of ClickUp. We leverage tasks for the engineers as well, so that they can keep track of the specific stories they're working on sprint to sprint. And we use this feature called tasks in multiple lists to ensure that the product managers can keep track of what's being worked on, can update the briefs and send those updates over to product marketing as well. So that product marketing can move forward with this go to market tasks. One of the features that we rely on heavily is our automations feature. When we think about defects that might come into our system, users complete a form, which is one of our view options... they create a form, submit the bug. And because of the custom fields that we have on the form, they're routed to the correct team automatically, so that we can save even more time and ensure that we're taking action on those bugs as quickly as possible. Jason Knight 14:10 Sounds good. But the company is growing really fast. I mean, I think you've raised something like 400 million recently on a valuation of 4 billion, based on the news that I saw. So that's a lot of money, big valuation, quadruple unicorn. So how's that affected the team? Like, has that meant that you started to scale the team really fast? Or did you already have enough people in place and you're using that money for something else? Brian Shen 14:34 We've raised significant funds recently, and it's been really exciting. Absolutely. The funds that we've acquired are really going into two things. One is growing our team, which is both product as well as our go to market teams, and then we're also using those funds to amp up our marketing even more. Jason Knight 14:55 Oh, wow. But it was already pretty high. Right? Brian Shen 14:57 It was but that's just the beginning. We have so much that we want to accomplish from a brand perspective. And it's really exciting stuff. I'm not able to comment on what those plans are. But if you ever interview Melissa, she can tell you more. Jason Knight 15:13 So I'm expecting some holographic adverts coming out soon and some virtual reality stuff, maybe some Metaverse as well. Brian Shen 15:20 Oh, maybe, you never know. Jason Knight 15:22 Ah, a good poker face going there. But you say that some of that team development is going into your team as well. So the product team itself, I guess has grown, as you've touched on, but also it's continuing to grow. So I guess one question that arises from that is what effect that's having on the team, like, you've got these three different verticals like the different parts of the platform, and docs, and all the other stuff that you're working on. You've got your product operations, you've got a way of working, I guess, that you had kind of come to, as you built those teams out, but now you're building even more. So how are you managing to keep the product culture together? And the ways of working? Like, are they staying the same and just getting more? Or are you having to sort of adapt those in flight and try and work out new ways to collaborate yourselves. Brian Shen 16:11 We've absolutely needed to adapt. As you scale, the things that worked when you were a tiny team don't necessarily work anymore. But that's one of the things that I love about working at ClickUp. It seems like every six months or so it's a different company, maybe even less than that, every three months it's like a different company. We've got a different set of problems that we're tackling on the product side, additional team members, additional business stakeholders that we need to manage. And then, you know, of course, our processes have changed. One of the things that we've had to do in order to scale is to add processes. I know everyone loves to be free flowing their ideas, and wants to move super fast. But one of the ways that you enable your team to scale is by adding in those checks and balances. So one of the ways that we've done that is by doing the normal things that other product teams do... we have templates for our briefs, we make sure that PMs are answering the same questions every time to make sure that they're actually taking the considerations they need to be intentional about their work and moving the metrics that we care about. So we've done those, we've also added meetings to drive that cross functional collaboration. So we do quarterly roadmap planning now. We do monthly roadmap reviews, we do feature reviews with our stakeholders to make sure we're we're not messing up any workflows that exist, that they're that our users love. None of this is that revolutionary, right? These are things that other teams have already done. But what we do is we look at these practices, and we adapt them in a way that works for our team. It we don't subscribe to you know, hardcore agile or SAFe practices. We've tried that, it doesn't work for our team, so we're willing to experiment and figure out what works. Jason Knight 18:05 So you've actually tried Scaled Agile, is that fair to say? Brian Shen 18:08 That's fair to say. Absolutely. Jason Knight 18:11 And it didn't go very well, I think I heard as well. Brian Shen 18:15 It worked, but there was a lot of overhead. And so we got a lot of pushback from the engineers, our technical support team, and from the product managers actually, to move away from that system. And so now we're somewhere in between, there's definitely custom fields that we need to fill out. There are automations in place, there are specific views for specific functions. But we don't want to subscribe to something that's way too much for at right now. Jason Knight 18:45 No, that's fair enough. But this kind of touches again on what we started touching on earlier, which is this whole idea of product ops. Now, there have been articles come out recently by an unnamed author that everyone's heard of that has written a couple of articles already about how product ops and process people aren't the way forward and how we should fully empower our teams and work flexibly and in an Agile fashion, just get more product managers don't worry about these process people. And product ops is sort of in the crosshairs in some of these articles, as well as a kind of almost like an embodiment of this desire to put more process and more of that standardisation around stuff. And you touched on it a little bit before as well that there is some of that there. But do you think it's fair to say that product ops for you is just that, just sort of... just enforcing these processes? Or do you think that that's an unfair critique and that a lot more value that you couldn't get from other people in the team? Brian Shen 19:46 To me, that's absolutely an unfair critique. But I'll couch that in the insight that product ops is different at every company, right? There are product ops teams that are purely focused on on process and the things you could say product managers don't want to do. But that's not how we've crafted that role here at ClickUp, as I said, they're really focused on the voice of the customer, and for disseminating the right information to enable other teams to do their jobs better, especially the go to market teams. And so really, in my mind, product ops is almost like the new term for product strategy. They partner with the PMs to decide what that product strategy is for their product area. It's less about enforcing those systems. To me, that's more of a technical programme managers role. And yes, we still do have those roles here at ClickUp, because we need someone to oversee those deadlines and ensure that people are adhering to the standards that we've defined that we've agreed to for the team. But that's not the role of product ops, in my mind. Jason Knight 20:53 Yeah, and I think one of the things that's really interesting, I completely agree with is that there's this kind of, is a very ill formed job area, I guess, like, as you say, there's so many different definitions of what product ops is. And I think, to be honest, that's what some of the articles are saying as well. It's not necessarily saying that all of the things these people are doing are bad, but that many companies are probably calling something isn't product ops, product ops. But then at the same time, it's interesting, because you say, of course, you've got like delivery managers, I don't know if you have project managers for kind of tactical work as well, or, like, there's obviously a number different ways to skin a cat right? But you still have this. I guess, it sounds like you have this oversight layer that you can use when you need it. So do you think that that's something that you need more of? Or do you think that you've kind of just got about enough? Brian Shen 21:46 Well, we find that projects are slipping, and we're not meeting our timelines that we've committed to then yes, I think a programme manager is absolutely helpful. But I don't think we need to be super overbearing in the amount of process that we add, as long as people are delivering. As I said, product ops, in my mind is more focused on enabling our teams to make the right decisions versus holding them accountable to certain processes. Jason Knight 22:18 And that's fair enough. But before this call, you also mentioned some of the problems that you see with what you call unintentional communication. And some of the problems that this can cause. Now, that sounds like something that would get made worse by scaling, as you have more people to communicate with, but what do you specifically mean by unintentional communication? And what problems can it cause? Brian Shen 22:40 Yeah, absolutely. Unintentional communication is one of my pet peeves. Another way of expressing the idea of unintentional communication is potentially verbal diarrhoea. And I use that term intentionally. Jason Knight 22:58 Ah, in all the senses of the word. Brian Shen 23:00 Yeah, exactly. In these instances, you're not really thinking about the audience and not making the interaction useful enough for them. I think this is funny, because as product people, we're always talking about user needs, and how we can apply that mindset. But there's so many other environments, including how you communicate with others, that it's definitely applicable. So, when we don't consider the person receiving the information, it can cause miscommunication, right? It can cause frustration, and it can cause even worse things, it can cause spin, which is the enemy of any startup. So I always ask myself and my team to think, what is the objective of the people involved in the conversation? What level of detail do they need? And what is their emotional state? These three things can really help you frame your ideas so that they're better received, and you also build trust in that interaction. A mentor once told me, people don't necessarily remember what you tell them, but they remember how you make them feel. And that's an insight that I bring with me into every interaction, especially the tough negotiations with my business stakeholders. Jason Knight 24:15 Yeah, I mean, that's a really interesting point. I think the idea that we need to moderate our message and give the appropriate level of detail to people is.. it's not controversial. I think that's a very, it's a very good thing to do. And I think that many people seem to fall into this, I guess, this mistaken belief that they just communicate a thing one way and put all the information that they can in an email or speak it all out or whatever. I remember someone asked me the other day, like, oh, how do I develop executive presence or executive communication? And I was like, keep it as short as possible. It's not that these people are dumb. Of course not. But it's that they are time poor, and they only need to know the most important parts of it, they don't need to know all the waffle and the preamble and all the other stuff in between. So it feels really important for us to... if we're going to be communicating cross functionally and communicate with all these groups to really make sure that we do that as effectively as possible. So what are some ways that you've worked on to get better at that or to double down on it yourself, because it doesn't come naturally to everyone, right? Brian Shen 25:21 It definitely does not come naturally. I think my time in product consulting and working in agencies really whipped me into shape in this regard. This is very early in my career. And I once had a director who sat me down and had me go through every slide to check if there were periods at the end of every bullet, because that level of detail was important in our pitch decks. But I think one of the things that I learned in this experience was that the formatting really matters. It helps you build confidence with your audience, to help them know that you're an expert at what you're talking about. If you present a poorly formatted deck, it's just another barrier to your ideas. So why not make it a good deck to begin with? But in addition to formatting, the way that you present your ideas is very important. You want to think about it as a story, creating a beginning, middle, and end, maybe identify a protagonist to your story, and bring in examples that underscore what the opportunity is. Whether it's a number, an anecdote, a verbatim, or even a video of what the user is struggling with. I think that helps to solidify the stakes and build empathy for what you're trying to accomplish. But with every deck that I work on, probably the most important step is putting my slides on a wall, whether it's a real wall or a virtual wall, and I read those headlines to make sure that it makes sense. You want to make sure that it's building towards that inevitable conclusion that you hope your audience will ride out with you. And especially for that executive audience, you want to make sure that you tell them what you're going to tell them, tell them the story, and then tell them what you told them to make sure it really sinks in. Jason Knight 27:07 Yeah, I think for me, as well, one thing that really clicked with me was actually rehearsing out loud, numerous times before giving a presentation, or even just a, an All Hands or something like that. It's just... there's nothing that helps you understand more how you sound or what you're going to trip over or what tangents you're gonna go down, then actually trying to do it and hearing yourself do those things. And I think there's some cliche, which I'll inevitably paraphrase incorrectly, that it takes a lot of effort to sound like you're not putting the effort in. Something along those lines. Like... you need to practice so much to sound effortless. Anyone that you just look at and think oh, yeah, they're amazing is actually... there's been a lot of work gone into that. But you recently presented or gave a talk at your ClickUp conference. I think you said you did that to 1000s of people. So, have you always been, like, a natural presenter that can just go out there and stand in front of that number of people and just go hey, or is that something that you had to work on as well? Brian Shen 28:07 I am definitely not the person who loves to get in front of 1000s of people to present. That is absolutely not me. It takes a lot of practice. I can tell you a little anecdote here. So, when I was in college, I worked for NBC Universal as a marketing representative. And I had to put on these guerilla marketing campaigns to drive people to essentially pre releases of their theatrical releases movies, essentially. And in addition to creating the campaigns myself, I had to get in front of the theatre, present the movie, ask people to stay behind and give feedback. And that was part of the deliverable that I had to give back to my regional manager. Now as a 20-something, maybe even less than that, even younger than that, I had to get in front of hundreds of people to get them hyped about a movie and that was not something that I was built for. My heart would be pounding, my palms would be sweaty, but I still did it. And it's kind of these stretch experiences that really help you grow as a leader. It helped me gain confidence in myself. And I think those experiences really prepped me for the things that I'm doing today, like talking with you or talking in front of 1000s of people like at LevelUp. Jason Knight 29:28 Yeah, well, I mean, it's, again, another cliche, but practice makes perfect, right? But I do agree this whole idea that you just... just have to kind of jump in the pool sometimes. Now, that could obviously go wrong. I mean, I remember jumping into a pool when I was a kid and half drowning and having to get dragged out. So you know, you absolutely have to choose your pool, I guess. But so many things sound hard, or look hard, or feel like they're going to be horrible until you do them and then you just have to keep doing them and getting better so I definitely agree with that. Now I want you to imagine a young up and coming product manager, maybe even a product leader who's doing quite well at their job in a small to medium sized startup, maybe getting a little bit of scale and doing all of the things that they need to do to make the company successful. And then they get to this point where they start going up, the curve starts going up, and it starts to look like you're gonna go into the stratosphere, maybe up near that volcano that you climbed up. What's your best piece of advice for the person, for the product person who's sitting there about to scale, about to go big And do all the things that you're doing at Click Up? Yeah, how can they prepare for that, and what are some steps that they can take to kind of make themselves ready for that journey? Brian Shen 30:41 I'm not sure who provided this advice to me. But it's one that stuck with me to this day as we're going through this hyper growth phase. And that's.. there will be jobs for everyone when you're going through hyper growth. You're solving some problems today, figuring out how it'll work and passing it to someone new who's joining the team, so that you can go work on the next set of challenges that are going to be even more complex, even more important. And so this is especially trueif you're scaling fast. Your goal should be to get things off of your plate, to get them to be good enough so that someone else can join your team, improve on the process, or improve on the idea that you've created. So that you can scale yourself and take the company to the next level. So I think it really comes down to being okay with being uncomfortable, right? One of the ClickUp's core values is growing 1% every day. And we also just talked about that, right, with practising putting your diving into the deep end to, to present in front of more and more people. It's the same idea here. You need to be comfortable with ambiguity, with giving up your role so that you can tackle some new big, tough problem. That's what makes working in hypergrowth company so exciting. Jason Knight 32:03 I imagine there's probably been some heavy days as well, right? Brian Shen 32:06 Yes, absolutely. Jason Knight 32:10 Any coping tips for the heavy days? Or is that very much kind of ad hoc, depending on what comes up? Brian Shen 32:17 I think for me, it's about having your hobbies, the things that get you into Flow that take your mind off of the everyday stresses that come in, whether that's taking a few minutes to meditate to breathe, or for me that involves singing... Jason Knight 32:36 Oh, if I knew I'd known we could have started a song up. Brian Shen 32:40 Yeah, that's just for me. Jason Knight 32:42 Okay, fair enough. And what's next for ClickUp then. And I mean, again, I'm not expecting any dramatic insider knowledge. What's next, big picture, for ClickUp? Any exciting public information that I should be aware of? Brian Shen 32:55 Well, what I can say is that we're continuing to invest in building our foundation for our vision. And part of that is building upon our recently launched whiteboards product, which is currently in Beta. If you haven't tried it out, go ahead and try it. I'd love to know what you think. But yeah, we want to get that into GA as quickly as possible. And we want to continue building on our localization efforts. So we're considering additional languages. Jason Knight 33:20 Ah, going international. Brian Shen 33:22 Yes, absolutely. Jason Knight 33:24 Sounds good. I look forward to the global domination in due course. And where can people find you after this call if they want to find out a little bit more about ClickUp or find a bit more about product management, or maybe even tried to get you to sing? Brian Shen 33:39 You can find me on LinkedIn, just search BrianShen11 and I should come up. And you can also find me at ClickUp. So go ahead and visit ClickUp.com Jason Knight 33:51 All right, I'll make sure to link that in and put everything on the show notes and hopefully, you'll get a few fans coming your way. That's been a fantastic chat. So obviously, really appreciate you taking the time to explain a little bit about how ClickUp works, what it does and where it might be going. Hopefully, we can stay in touch. But as for now, thanks for taking the time. Brian Shen 34:08 Thanks, Jason. It's been a blast, and I hope we can keep in touch as well. Jason Knight 34:14 As always, thanks for listening. I hope you found the episode inspiring and insightful. If you did, again, I can only encourage you to hop over to OneKnightInProduct.com, check out some of my other fantastic guests, sign up to the mailing list or subscribe on your favourite podcast app and make sure you share it with your friends so you and they can never miss another episode again. I'll be back soon with another inspiring guest but, as for now, thanks and good night.