Jason Knight 0:00 Hello and welcome to the show. I'm your host Jason Knight and on each episode of this podcast I'll be having inspiring conversations with passionate product people. If you like the sound of that and want to hear from me and some of the finest product thought leaders and practitioners in the world, why not head over to OneKnightInProduct.com, where you can sign up to the mailing list, subscribe on your favourite podcast app, follow the podcast on social media and guarantee you never miss another episode again. On tonight's episode, we ponder the product management career ladder, whether it actually exists and if it does, whether it's been greased with spikes all over it. We talk about making the transition into leadership, some of the things to concentrate on to get you there and why when you do get there, you have to learn to let go empower your teams and give them room to flourish. We also touch on being yourself and not trying to live up to some fake vision of what you should be but working out what you want to be doing that instead. For all this and much more please join us on One Knight in Product So my guest tonight is Katerina Suchkova. Katia is a digital nomad and product coach who's passionate about entrepreneurship, not just building your own inevitably failing startup but being an entrepreneurial thinking throughout your life, career and relationships. Katia grew up in the Soviet Union before realising that was a bit cold for her liking and escaping to Costa Rica for some sun. She's now working now as a product leadership coach trying to help inspire Senior Product Managers to take the leap into product leadership and use their product leadership smarts to make a positive impact on the world we live in. Hi Katia. How are you tonight? Katia Suchkova 1:30 Hi, Jason. I'm doing really well. How are you? Jason Knight 1:34 I am doing fantastic. Thank you very much. Katia Suchkova 1:36 That was a great intro by the way. Thank you. Jason Knight 1:38 Thank you. I always put the effort in. Alright, so first things first, you are a product leadership coach with your own consultancy Ahead Of Product... loving the double meaning pun there as well. So what sort of coaching are you doing? And what types of people are you supporting? Katia Suchkova 1:53 I've moved to full time coaching last year, right after my gig with 15Five, where I was leading a group of remote product managers was over. And today I have two things. One is kind of the coaching business where it's mostly one on one, B2C, and I'm looking into moving into B2B with KaterinaSuchkova.com And there is a new branch that myself and my co founder Daniel, we spun out back in November with Ahead of Product. So that one is really focused on coaching and helping product managers level up to leadership roles. That's kind of the sweet spot that where I found myself in this sweet spot that really resonated with me, because I went through the transition, I think reading and listening to your podcast and kind of understand your journey. I think there is like a lot of a lot of similarities in that way that it is such a unique phase in our lives as product managers that for some reason, you know, not that many people talk about it. But when Yeah, some people do we connect right with others on that. And so the head of product is mostly group coaching with another cohort of hours starting at the end of February really focusing on developing leadership skills for product managers or senior product managers who are ready to level up in the next 12 months and move up to a good product managers or a director role. Jason Knight 3:21 Yeah, that's really interesting. But how do you split those two up? Like you've got effectively two gigs at the same time, then we've different focuses? So would you say that like the majority of your work? Is the coaching through the academy discover.com brand? Or are you kind of 50/50? Like, how does that fall out? And how do you spend your time? Katia Suchkova 3:40 Great question. I guess I have three gigs. Yeah, there is a third project where I work with another co founder, my designer partner on creating a small venture, we're really tackling the market of late payments that freelancers and solopreneurs have to deal with. But that's really where I practice my product muscles still so that we, you know, into discovery and moving into the build stage right now, in terms of the timing for specifically when we talk about those two gigs, coaching and the group coaching. I had a product being maybe like 20 to 30% right now. And then the rest is really kind of one on one B2C for now, B2C coaching and hopefully moving into B2B at some point in 22. So that's kind of how my day usually looks like with some other time also allocated to a third project. Jason Knight 4:36 But when you're talking about B2B and B2C and obviously focusing so far on B2C, like you say, what is it that made you focus specifically on B2C as a first step? Was it that that was just your experience and you wanted to start out in an area that was most comfortable to you, or do you think that there's a specific area of coaching B2C that is somewhat either easier or more straightforward or something that resonates with you more strongly? Like, was there a specific reason to concentrate on that area first? Katia Suchkova 5:06 Good question. So for me, when I looked at the way I could grow and build my practice, I really consider it as building the product. Right? So what does an MVP version of my ultimate version would look like? And you said it, right. B2C is in a way easier. I've been doing coaching on the side and mentorship for three years, starting in 2019. So it was a very natural move for me to just move into that full time, because I already had clients. So all it meant for me is to just start really working on my own brand, right, trying to get my word around, really building strong content and presentation, and positioning. So it kind of was like a very natural MVP, when it comes to B2B. I think a lot of coaches, when we think about scaling, right, we think about either B2B, because this is where you know, you're not necessarily it's a good way to productize your services in a way, right? If we think about, again, our practices, our businesses as the product, you start with just given a service, you know, service per hour service per package, whatever that is. And then eventually, you would want to scale it. One way is B2B in other way, it way as a group coaching. A third way is just start productize into creating the products, right courses, in a way, you know, build a widget and sell it 100 times that way. So that's, that, to me, seemed very natural with my product mindset. It didn't require a lot of pivoting, it just kind of required, generating more focus and really paying more attention to what I know I can do well. Jason Knight 6:51 Fair enough. And like you say, MVP, get it started and then expand... classic Crossing the Chasm marketing type effort. But you're based in Costa Rica. Now, I don't know too much about the product scene in Costa Rica. I guess the first question is, is there a product scene in Costa Rica? Is there a particularly burgeoning product scene in Costa Rica, are you primarily offering your services globally? Katia Suchkova 7:11 Mostly offering globally. So to me, I don't know actually know much about product scene in Costa Rica, because there is really not that much going on here. In terms of you know, events, it's really it's a good place to live, it's not necessarily a good place to bounce your ideas off with other entrepreneurs go into meetups, you know, really flex your entrepreneurial mind. But it is a good place to settle down and live. So they do have some technologists coming out from from the country, but nothing really, that doesn't exist anywhere else. And I think was that because they do have kind of those dev shops where a lot of people just to, like outsource their engineering needs. So to me, that's from what I know, in my knowledge is limited. That's kind of the only thing that's probably really happened in here from like, technological point of view. And my clients mostly come from, it's kinda interesting, really, from all over the world. I would say, a big chunk from Europe, a big chunk from us. There is a Middle East part. And there is some South Asian countries too. Jason Knight 8:23 So no Product Tank Costa Rica coming in your name anytime soon, then is what we're saying? Katia Suchkova 8:27 No, not yet. Not until I... not until I see the demand. But who knows? Maybe that's, you know, there is an MVP to that to you actually making me think and get a little bit more curious about that. Like, huh, how come? I haven't thought about it? Maybe I should take a look. Jason Knight 8:46 There you go, all starts here. Before you started coaching, you're a product manager and product leader yourself working for a few companies before you then broke out on your own? So what was it that made you decide that coaching was a thing you wanted to do? I mean, I know you said you were mentoring before? So was it like a natural extension and just almost the obvious path for you to take? or was there some other event that made you think, hey, I really need to start helping people out. Katia Suchkova 9:11 It was not natural, you know, looking backwards and everything is more clear and retrospective. Right? So looking backwards, I see the clear path and like, oh, yeah, that was... like it was natural. But at that moment, and kind of the combination of little moments that brought me to where I am today. It was more of a trial and error in terms of direction. But when it comes to coaching people I think I realised several years ago, maybe right after I left ServiceNow as a Senior Product Manager with me and my partner, we became digital nomads. I took a year and a half of break just to, you know, just to figure it out. What is that I want to do and coaching came in a way of wanting to teach. That's one aspect of that, kind of recognising an internal teacher within me that I've never actually seen before. Right? Again, looking back now, I'm like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. Actually, when I was like five years old, I would put all of my dolls. So that would apparently teach them. But that only, you know, I remember this only now and that not a few years ago, when I was actually making the decision. So for me that year and a half a break, right was sabbatical was really just the time of trying out a lot of things, connecting with people seeing what's out there. And coaching, I gravitated to that the most because it gave me a way to practice what actually was natural for me is asking powerful questions, helping people to find the answer for themselves, getting really curious about other human being in front of me or human beings in the group, and really helping to bring the best in each of them. And that became more clear, when I started leading the team, I realised how much joy how much meaning in there to see when people around you in a matter of three months, six months, nine months become better at what they do, they think of themselves better, you really elevating how you know, you live it in their confidence, you elevate in their comfort level, and acceptance level of who they are. And to me, that was like, wow, this is a huge impact that I can create. And that huge impact, you know, it's not, it's huge for a specific person, maybe like when we look in an accumulation is just a little effect here and there. But for one individual person, helping them to see beyond their challenges, and obstacles, limited mindset is huge. And I've seen people coming in for coming into me for that. And I so it kinda was at that moment, it was like a little bit more of a natural gratification. And after 55 Yeah, it was just the more of a kind of like, the freedom seeker in in me, really spoke up and said, Okay, that's, you know, time to time to get things going on my own. Because I've been always wanting to do that. Jason Knight 12:17 Yeah, that's obviously a really powerful story, the idea that you can go out there and really help people like you say, like, No, maybe not 1000s of people at once, but I still remain fully convinced it is possible to make good change for people's lives, or one by one. And it's certainly something that resonates with me, sort of when I go visit my coaching and so my mentorship that I've either received or given in my time, the idea that work is really hard, and people need support, and they need experienced people to kind of tell them the things that can be okay. So, you know, that definitely resonates with me. But did you have coaches or mentors yourself as you were coming up through the ranks and moving into leadership? Or did you have to then work that all out yourself and kind of learn through the school of hard knocks? Katia Suchkova 13:05 Mm hmm. Was such a good segue, because I was about actually to mention that, you know, in in my personal journey I had, I think I had a mixed bag, I was lucky to have really good managers, and mentors along my way, who really become the role models for me, right, because to me, being a mentor or a coach is really, you are creating a role model for someone who might not be thinking they can do that, right. But when they see someone, right in that moving into that role, someone with a similar background, maybe very different background, but similar point of views or the way we look at the world. So in my career, I did have quite a few great managers, I also had a, and still have a couple of really good friends who were in that executive leadership, executive and leadership coaching spaces, who in a way helped me calibrate towards where I am today, maybe, you know, intentionally or not intentionally, but there was always kind of that support network. And that's why to me, you know, you said it work place and growing up becoming an adult, right is difficult. It's, you know, whatever they say it's, you know, like looking back at my you know, childhood and I'm like, Oh, my God, it was no responsibilities. There was like, really no, the life but becoming an adult is very challenging. Becoming a good adult is even more challenging. So my concept of helping to develop future product leaders so that they can empower and develop their teams so that they can build really good products is really important, because if you look at that, second degree of consequences and third degree of consequences, which you know, many of us One tonight, of course, I don't do on a daily basis either because it's difficult, right. But if you see that it's all really starts with being just a good human and a good leader, then it really touches people who touched the products that your teams built. And you better empower everyone in the chain, to make good decisions and to be humans. Jason Knight 15:21 No, absolutely, again, resonates a lot with my experience and some of the values that I try to hold going forward as you build teams out and work with people to try and make their lives easier as well. But we taught before this about the concept of the product management career ladder, like this well structured path from being an Associate Product Manager through to a product manager through to a senior product manager, maybe a principal product manager, all the way through then to potentially head of product, VP of Product, CPO, and all of the different variations of those jobs that you can have in different companies as well. But before we talk about some of those specific transition points, I'm curious, do you actually think that a well structured ladder like that actually exists in most companies in the world? Katia Suchkova 16:07 My belief is it doesn't, based on my experience, working for a huge organisation such as ServiceNow, but also, you know, growing startups such as 15Five, but also having coaching clients who come in from places like Meta and Google and Stripe, and Airbnb, I realised that product management career path is not only it's different than every organisation, which we know it is, right, because every organisation dependent on the leadership really have a very different definitions, you know, we might be happy with them, we might not be happy with them. But that's just the nature of reality. The fact that an established career ladder exists, it's more of a myth than than reality. And same as for the career growth or career development plans for product managers. It's like in my experience, unless you're being proactive, unless you're asking for that and really make it your manager to work hard on creating that just doesn't exist. Jason Knight 17:13 Yeah, absolutely. In fact, I was mentoring someone today who was having that exact same issue. And we were going through some of the things that they could potentially look at to try and help kickstart their career. Because again, like you say, it's just for me, it's almost like product managers, or just me, and maybe they get to manage a slightly bigger product, or maybe even go the other way and get to manage a smaller part of a bigger product. But actually having proactive and like a guided path to that promised land, rightly or wrongly promised land of being a leader. I mean, I reckon that there's probably a bunch of people that probably think that leadership is a lot better than it actually is, or gives them things that they won't actually get when they get there. But at the same time, if you assume that they do want to get there, then there still doesn't seem to be that path in a lot of companies, people that I speak to, from a lot of companies to actually get there. But it's part of the problem, not just that ladder, but also that, frankly, product management is such an ill formed discipline in so many of these companies as well, like I've looked at a bunch of job ads in the past and things that people have shared with me, and you know, just trying to do general research around the industry to see what's going on. And like, there's a lot of terrible job specs out there are all levels, very little compatibility between a lot of them. Some of the job specs just seem to be kind of copy and pasted from bits of other job specs. They've got, like lingering parts of project management, job titles and responsibilities in them as well. Most companies don't seem to have a really solid idea of what the value of good product management is. So is it any surprise to you that there are so many people having problems developing their careers when the very concept of what their job or that career should be seems to be up for debate in a lot of these companies? Katia Suchkova 18:50 Oh, absolutely. Not as surprised. In fact, that was, you know, two years ago, I did a presentation for Product Management festival, just to lift the curtain to show product managers that, hey, there's kind of different paths that you can take, as a product manager, it doesn't have to be a leader, because everyone just kind of gets stuck on that there is a very strong path of being a very strong individual contributor becoming, you know, very adapted many projects and cross functional teams as a principal or a staff product manager. But the fact that so many clients of mine, as well as just mentees struggle, figuring out what happens at that mid career point, because I think, up until mid Korea, it's a little bit more clear, right? It's kind of like, okay, well, I start as a junior associate PM, and then I become a pm in a year, a year and a half. Then after a couple of three years, up to five, I move to a senior product manager. And that's it and then we stay in senior product manager for a very, very long time. Until right until we're like oh There's something wrong with that. Seems like I can't move left and I can't move. Right. So how do we how do we actually become who I want to become, let's say a leader? Yeah. And from that perspective, it's not surprising at all. And you know, what's also kind of not surprising in the way. demotivated unsaid is that the actual product leadership, but those companies who don't have capacity don't have means maybe don't even have interest in kind of lifting that curtain for their product managers. They're not even trying, there is a lot of Yeah, right. There is a lot of kind of interesting interest in styles of management that, that don't, they don't empower other people. But they, you know, I'm not even talking about coaching, right coaching as a habit, right, really adapting some of the behaviours and mindsets to empower your people to figure it out instead of micromanaging. But the fact that majority of the manager still don't meet with their direct reports every week, for at least 30 minutes, and have structured conversations and help develop their thinking is very disappointing. To me. That's why it feels like that leadership is where we potentially might need to focus so that people who report to that leadership can start seeing what's actually possible so that they can start spreading their wings. So that's kind of, you know, in a way, chicken and egg, and I'm trying to kind of address it from both ends in a way, and we'll see which one works better. Jason Knight 21:34 Right. And that seems to basically paint this part leadership role in product management in general, to be honest, but this product leadership role is quite a tricky gig in a lot of companies. Why should people even want to go for that role in your opinion? Katia Suchkova 21:48 That's a good question. That's my first question that I asked people who have aspirations of becoming a product leader, why do you want to be a product leader? And there is a lot of power behind this question that requires a lot of time of thinking. So I am always encouraged to take time to reflect. Because what happens is that right, we, from my perspective, and based on my experience, and just seeing a lot of clients I work with there is a peer pressure, a huge peer pressure in a product management world, right, you can resonate for that. We all have to move in this one direction that if you're not climbing the ladder, which no one knows how that might look like, fast enough. If you are not taking, I don't know, 100 courses a year, if you're not wanting to be a chief product officer, there is something wrong with you. And the truth and reality is that there is nothing wrong with you. What's wrong with us is that we buying in and we get impressed by this crowd thinking in a way instead of taking a step back. And that's how I usually start my every engagement is that I like to take a step back or step up to see from the different vantage point of view. How does your career fit in your life? What do you like to do? Do you like to roll up your sleeves and really work with your designers and product managers? Would you be disappointed if you stopped doing this? Yeah, right. And what does peer pressure tell you in this case, and then then you start separating? Oh, this is just influence from others. But this is what actually my heart wants. That's what my wise self 10/15/20 years from today would actually tell me is to pursue my own path of being really good expert hands on principal product manager, or just a really someone who works with multiple products, but also can mentor but you just don't, you know, you just don't have leadership responsibilities official UI leader, because to me, being a principal product manager, you are later, staff product manager, you are like if you're not, then you probably got there by chance. So by my luck.. Jason Knight 24:09 Which I'm sure happens in some cases as well. Katia Suchkova 24:12 Absolutely. Yeah. So to me, this is like, why do you want to be a product leader is where everything should start and stop? Because that's where hopefully you'll get some insights from, from your inner wise self, that should come out. Jason Knight 24:29 if you have one. But if we assume then that someone does want to be a product leader, and they've gone through that effective journey, and they get to a point and they say, right, yeah, no, this is actually this floats my boat, I want to be here. I want to be doing this thing. What are some of the things you advise that person then to concentrate on before they get there? So like at the very end of their senior product manager, part of their career when they're just about ready to make that leap into product leadership, and they want to either get themselves over the line or prepare themselves for the promotion that they I think is due to them. Where should they be focusing their efforts? And how should they be positioning themselves for that? Katia Suchkova 25:05 Yes. Also great, great question. So with so if we look at kind of that that transition point, I think the number one is get really clear on what you want. Right? So if we asked you in that, okay, you've done the reflection, some retrospective thinking, you realise that, yes, I have so much strength, I'm aware that this is the area to improve, you kind of done maybe even skills gap analysis, the next step is really being clear with your manager, that this is something that you want to pursue. And you know, I'm no way delusion that some organisations just don't have capacity for leadership. Right. And they might not have capacity for the next couple of years. Whatever the reason is, right, there isn't maybe they tried to raise another series, everything is frozen. No one has been hired, no promotions are happening. Another reason could be, hey, we don't promote internally. That could be unfortunately the the reality too. So to me, that's kind of like your homework, right? Your homework, start having discussions with your with your manager. My suggestion is, once you get clear, once you realise that there are indeed opportunities internally for you to make some kind of a move, or for you to maybe even develop skills that you might need in your next role, maybe you're going to have to go to a different organisation. And your manager should get really clear with you about that, too, if they honest. To me, that's like once that homework is done, having at least once a month career growth conversation with your direct manager to track the progress. And the area of leadership, not even ever, in the area of leadership, where I would probably focus all my attention would be on getting the visibility into your work. Because what happens with us when we are kind of stuck in that individual contributor mode, we develop the tunnel vision, we all right, that's all we see is all we see. It's our team. It's my domain, problem domain. And it's only this a number of stakeholders that I deal with on a daily basis. And analogy that I started thinking about, it's almost like, if we think about an ocean, right, by seas, we tend to be kind of underwater all the time. So we get really good. Write that scene, what happens like, I know this page, and this algae and all this crap. So it's like, I'm just, I'm just like a great underwater scuba diver at this point, I know everything that's happening, right. But we don't know what's happening above the water and above the water. To me, that's where that widening your lenses, as a leader is really where it's happening. It's really widening your scope, increasing your scope increasing, just really thinking about instead of being something very deep inter developing the width of all of that. And the way we can work on that is to do two things. One is we need to figure out what are the some of opportunities or pain points for us within maybe it's a people domain, maybe it's a problem domain, maybe it's a stakeholder domain that I can take on, I can lead. I can develop skills along the way. But that project or initiative needs to be of a high importance to hire leadership. And for you to understand, why would they care about what you're doing is you have your manager, your manager, ideally, is that voice of the leadership? And what's important to them? That could help you kind of elevate your game? In a way, right. And of course, I always hear the kind of doubts about the strategies and that well, but you know, I'm a senior product manager, there's so much to do for me, I have to do a retro and I have to meet with my team. And I have to make every decision and like, look how many calls I have. And yes, we do. And yes, I did, too. And you probably did, too, right? But yep, the moment of change happens when you realise that you have a power of delegation of power of empowerment, so that you can create space for doing those high visibility initiatives that I just talked about. Right? And it might start with, take a look at your calendar. Do you need to be at every call your decision making? Do you need to be present at every decision making meeting? Can you delegate something? Can you do something a synchronously? Yeah, and it's really just running in the inventory. And again, working hopefully with your manager on figuring out how to create more space so that you can finally be above the water and use your manager as that collaboration mechanism for Doing something that seems important for both leadership, and either problem, domain stakeholder domain, or team domain. Jason Knight 30:09 Yep, so that definitely makes sense. But I guess the flip side of that then is, and maybe something based on some of the people you've coached, or maybe even some mistakes you've made in your career, like, Are there any key no no's or big mistakes that newly installed leaders in product organisations tend to make in your experience that they should really deliberately try to avoid, apart from not doing all those things you just said, like any very specific behaviour that they just need to get out of? Katia Suchkova 30:35 My personal mistake. And something that I had to let go off is to stop wanting to understand everything I know everything that's happening in my home. Jason Knight 30:46 I definitely don't have that problem! Katia Suchkova 30:49 Right, every time my team member would come in, and I would have an urge to like, oh, yeah, let's brainstorm you know, let's, let's solve your problem. And shirts, you know, it is helpful in a way, but I realised, thanks to the input from, from my manager and other people around me that that type of work with my direct reports is not really supporting their own growth, they have their own domain, right. And there's, if I'm willing to empower them, and create that autonomous unit, which I say I do, that my responsibility is really helped them to do their best job. And for me to do that is that they have to be thinking on their own, I can support their thinking, right, I can guide their thinking, I can ask questions, to arrive at certain decisions. But really, my involvement in the day to day is not required. So that's number one. Number two is really that, me thinking versus us thinking, again, being an individual contributor, right? It's all about our individual goals, individual results, individual output, individual outcomes, it's all about me, me, me, the world is revolving around me, and then I have to manage the stakeholders. And again, that's me. But when you're the leader of shoes, it's really all about the team. It's not about your results, because your results are really the team's results. So your job, my job at the time was to empower the team to make the best decisions so that we can achieve those results. And it's really, you know, obviously, everything else comes to that, you know, not taking, like some leaders, we you know, we tend to take credit because, you know, you get did help and you want to kind of feel proud about that, right. But then it takes a little bit of a detachment from that ego, that we write that we get to friend for so many years. And I see role that at some point, that's really, you know, that ego can just be just put on the side. And everything that you do you really kind of serving you're serving your people to be to be their best selves. Jason Knight 33:00 Yeah, I think anyone that gets into product leadership, or even to some extent, product management expecting to be given all the credit and made the look good, and everyone worship them is probably going into the wrong job. But I completely agree with leaving the ego at the side of the pitch and just trying to enable as much as possible. And I always see it as kind of trying to apply as much or provide as much leverage to the team to enable them to do everything that they need to do and give them the support and air cover to prevent them getting either distracted or attacked or whatever else happens in your particular company. Things like that just seem to be completely essential. And basically the core responsibility of any people leader product or otherwise. Right, exactly. Where can people find you after this apartment, they come to Costa Rica, if they want to talk about product leadership, product management, or maybe even find out a bit about your coaching. Katia Suchkova 33:43 I of course, I would like them first in Costa Rica. Just take like he should be here. Jason Knight 33:48 There you go. Katia Suchkova 33:51 The best place is LinkedIn... very, very active, respond really quickly. So if you just want to say hi, you want to find out about how I work if we are good fit. If you want to explore pretty much anything, just connect with me on LinkedIn, Katerina Suchkova. The second best is email, same katerina@katerinasuchkova.com. I would love to hear from you. And if you want to hear more about the programme that we launched in the next cohort at the end of February, you can do the first two things in LinkedIn or email or you can just email us at jump at the head of product that calm feel or just visit our website ahead of product that calm if you want to. If you feel like you're ready to level up your game, but you just need that extra support and coaching throughout the process. Jason Knight 34:44 Excellent. Well, I'll link that all in and hopefully you get a few interested parties coming in your direction. Katia Suchkova 34:49 Thank you. Jason Knight 34:50 I want to spend a fantastic chat obviously really appreciate you taking some time to share some of your thoughts, opinions and experience on both coaching and product leadership in general. Obviously, we'll stay in touch but as for now thanks for taking the time. Katia Suchkova 35:01 Thank you Jason. It was a pleasure to have conversation with you and honour to be on your podcast. Jason Knight 35:08 As always, thanks for listening. I hope you found the episode inspiring and insightful. If you did again, I can only encourage you to pop over to OneKnightInProduct.com, check out some of my other fantastic guests, sign up to the mailing list or subscribe on your favourite podcast app. Make sure you share with your friends so you and they can never miss another episode again. I'll be back soon with another inspiring guest. But as for now, thanks and good night.