Jason Knight 0:00 Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm your host, Jason Knight and on each episode of this podcast, I'll be having inspiring conversations with passionate product people. If that sounds like your sort of party, why not bring a packet of crisps (or potato chips), and your cheapest bottle of wine over and join me and some of the finest thought leaders and practitioners in the world on OneKnightInProduct.com, where you can sign up to the mailing list, subscribe on your favourite podcast app or follow the podcast on social media. I guarantee you never miss another party invite again. On tonight's episode, we talk about getting stuck maintaining someone else's codebase, not seeing any other tools out there to help you out and building your own, only to find out that there's an even wider problem you can help solve and some of the ways you might try to shift focus, how to find product market fit for the second time and how to set your teams up to keep two different sets of users happy. We also wonder if there's anything to the cliche that tech firms just hide from the same exclusive club of candidates and whether high profile foundations make that problem better or worse. For this and much more, please join us on One Knight in Product . So my guest tonight is Matt Arbefeld. Matt's an MIT graduate, entrepreneur and Thiel Fellow. Matt's passionate about building companies and great products and also cooking and fitness, which depending on what you're cooking seems to be a bit in opposition. Speaking of which, Matt's keen on removing opposition between engineering and product management and helping teams make good data driven decisions, which is doing his best to enable as the founder and CEO of LogRocket, who are looking to empower software teams to create the ideal web and mobile product experience. Hi, Matt, how are you tonight? Matt Arbesfeld 1:36 I'm doing well, yeah. I have my tea ready, so excited to chat. Jason Knight 1:40 Yeah, no, it's always good to have a nice enabling tea to get you through the ordeal that tonight will be Matt Arbesfeld 1:45 instead of the British accent, I need to... I need to chase my English roots Jason Knight 1:50 There you go. I'm sure we can get you doing a British accent by the end of the interview. But before that, let's take it from the top. You are the co founder and CEO of LogRocket. So apart from the tagline, which I've had earlier, what problem does LogRocket solve for me? Matt Arbesfeld 2:05 Yeah, we help our customers build the best possible web and mobile experience. And what we found that was... Jason Knight 2:12 That's the tagline, you can't say that! Matt Arbesfeld 2:14 Well, yeah, so what we found is web engineers and product developers and designers, really difficult to understand what are the pain points and issues my customers were having using my software, and he just launched a product and people would give you some feedback, but it would really be in the dark about what's going wrong, where people are struggling, what issues are they having? So we do our blog rocket to give our customers and ourselves honestly, the full understanding of what's going on and, and where you can make an improve your online experiences. Jason Knight 2:45 Right, that's interesting. Because if you say you're building it for yourselves, like what was it that you... ou can't build log rocket to track nothing, you must have had some other kind of product or application that you are building before that was it that you were building some other tool, realise this was a pain point and then build LogRocket? And that just became the thing? Or did you kind of run both? Or have you still got both? Or did all get rolled into one? Like, how did that play out? Matt Arbesfeld 3:08 Yeah, good question. So I was a engineer as an intern at a startup. And I inherited this code base of really old code base we used, yeah. And I think we've all been in that those shoes of who... and so I think the first day I even got there, there was some issue a customer had, and they sent a screenshot to my CEO at the time, who then forward me this email, and I'm there, I've no idea about the codebase. I see just a screenshot of this issue. I'm pulling my hair out trying to figure out what happens. And so it actually took many months later, when it dawned on me that problem that could actually be solved. But that was seeing that experience is what inspired the original version of LogRocket. Jason Knight 3:50 Yeah, that's fair enough. And obviously, it's a problem that many people have. And especially if you start talking to CS people and other people that are trying to maintain the quality of service of the products, sort of going through the customer lifecycle, but it feels like a really competitive space. Like there are a lot of tools out there these days that do that kind of thing. I'm not quite sure how many of those were around back in 2016, when you started, but surely there must have been at least some temptation to just go and use one of those tools instead, rather than go out and build your own. So what was it that made you feel that you could go out and tackle this problem in a way that maybe some of these other tools couldn't handle? Matt Arbesfeld 4:27 Yeah, back in 2015. It was definitely a much different environments. And my background, actually, prior to that company, I worked at Google on the Chrome JavaScript team, and then a company called Meteor that was building JavaScript frameworks. And so there was all this new stuff happening in front end development, like React and Angular and Vue. And so all the tools that existed were more focused on designers and product people to watch what users were doing, but not getting to the technical details of what went wrong. So that combining that pain point I had with that background of working with finding developers is why we felt like there was a big need for developers specifically. Jason Knight 5:06 Right, and you're kind of up against these days, I assume people like Pendo and amplitude to some degree. We also talked about people like full story before there's part of your competitive landscape. So is it really those kinds of people you're up against, or you're up against more technical tools that people might use to do some kind of platform debugging as well. Matt Arbesfeld 5:26 The way I think of it is, typically customers will have a technical monitoring tool, like a DataDog or New Relic. Yeah. And then they're also have an analytics tool like Google Analytics, or Amplitude, or Pendo. And we sit in between those and connect data from all these sources. So most of our customers will have one of each of those parts of the stack. So if your direct competitors tend to be companies like full story, or SmartLook, and their integrate us with a tool like Pendo or Amplitude. Jason Knight 5:56 So you started the company back in May 2015, I guess was when you started having the problem. I think the company itself came around 2016 If I did my research properly, and like you said before, that you had a few internships at places like Google plus like Meteor, ClaraLab, so starting out in engineering before going into what looks kind of like more of a marketing type role? Is it literally that you went from a bunch of internships into founding your own company? Like that's a big leap, right? How did how did that happen? Matt Arbesfeld 6:28 So LogRocket is actually the, I believe the third company has started. So I had a couple of failures, I was taught failures along the way. In college, I think, where most people are going to class or partying. My friends and I were building applications, or mobile apps or games, and so had a couple other apps we built. And so that was what my friend Ben and I, who is my co founder here at log rocket, we've known each other since we were about a month old and after work, we'd go home, and we'd be building software products together. And so that's, that's how we, during school and during work, we were able to start and develop the product and then launch it. But yeah, it's it happened along school, and then we ended up finishing school, and then went full time in the company about six, six half years ago at this point. Jason Knight 7:21 So you're both effectively technical founders? And did you find the either of you had any of that kind of business acumen from the start that you would feel that you'd need to build a startup? Or did you have to get mentorship or coaching to do that? Or did you just kind of work out as you went? I mean, you talked about your couple of failures, but I guess they were pretty early on. But But how did you build those business muscles on top of the engineering credibility that you already had? Matt Arbesfeld 7:46 Yeah. So we actually started our first business in the second grade. Jason Knight 7:50 Okay, I'm not sure we're counting that. Matt Arbesfeld 7:51 Yeah, we've always been entrepreneurial, in terms of knowing just as important as building a great product is how you get it to customers and sell it and market it. And so we've always had an interest in bringing products to market. So both Ben and I, we love sales and marketing. And actually, alongside starting the products, we started a blog for for fun developers, the log rocket blog. And without that we wouldn't have gotten to where we are today. So really, it's been both sales and marketing, focus, as well as the product focus that has gotten us here. Jason Knight 8:24 But we kind of touched on it earlier, you didn't really start this tool for product people to do product analytic stuff, right? It was originally aimed at engineers and kind of turned into the product analytic stuff later. So what was the specific original goal of the product? As you saw when you started this all up? I mean, you talked a little bit about the pain points you were having, but specifically, what problem were you looking to solve? And for specifically who? Matt Arbesfeld 8:48 The first problem we were solving was specifically for that finance engineer who's there's an issue, you can't figure out what happens, your CEO is complaining, saying something's wrong. How do you understand what happened to that customer? What we found, though, is that over time, more and more product, people were coming to the platform, and we were asking, What are you doing here? They would say, Well, my Google Analytics is showing a drop in conversion rate, or people are not using this feature. Why is that happening? And so they watch hundreds and hundreds of 1000s of sessions. Some people even referred to us as they watch us more than Netflix, they watched so many sessions. So we that's when we realised there's actually a lot of value here for also those product personas or, or even engineers who care about product. Jason Knight 9:33 Yeah, that's interesting, that kind of additional richness that you can bring to the hard numbers that you can get out of some of these analytic tools. But you also touched on how it was enabling a very technical issue analysis as well. So obviously, it was originally aimed at, say front end developers, they obviously are gonna get a lot out of watching people rage clicking around pages and stuff like that, but were you able to somehow bring Technical and framework stuff out to them so they could actually see some of the stuff that was going on. I mean, I guess you could argue things like just to console logs or whatever. But like, Was there more richness that would bamboozle maybe your average product manager, but was super interesting for those front end developers? Matt Arbesfeld 10:16 Exactly. So we we capture a lot of detail from frameworks like React and Redux and Angular and capturing performance metrics. So how much memory you're using on the front ends? Or are there any slow transitions as you click through buttons and jank? So a lot of in depth debugging and performance information for developers as well? Jason Knight 10:39 Yeah, that definitely makes sense. But then at some point, you must have sat there or sat there with your founder, your co founder and said to yourself, hey, we need to pivot. And I know you touched on earlier that you've seen other people using it, too. So was it a case where you actually felt that you had to do an actual pivot and say, change, the focus of the company changed the focus of the product and effectively made those product people your main market? Or was it more of a kind of a false pivot, where you were just adding additional markets or additional use cases on top of what you already had? Like? What was the point where you realised that there was something there that you needed to maybe switch up a bit? Matt Arbesfeld 11:17 Yeah, good question. It probably came at some year transition where we were thinking, what do we build this year? And, and we talked, like, I think any great product people, most your time is spent talking to customers and understanding their needs. And yeah, we heard consistently, I love the sessions, but I use it more reactively. And I want to be more proactive and, and find issues before customers report them. And so we heard that both from product people who were looking at design and usability issues, and also from engineers who were trying to find errors and performance issues and technical issues. And so we looked at how do we surface these aggregate metrics to customers and, and help people surface problems. So we saw an opportunity to not only further the feature set for our core audience, but that same feature set would also be valuable to a new persona being the product persona. And so that's, that felt like the right investment where we get kill two birds with one stone, we can keep deepening our core persona, but we can also add this new product manager persona and expand there. Jason Knight 12:21 Right. So it wasn't necessarily a pivot, so to speak, it was much more of an expansion, and using what you've got, as you say, but one of the things that occurred to me while you were talking now is that if we go back to our point about that technical information, like there could be quite a lot of information in that tool, or quite a lot of stuff that you surface that is completely at best, irrelevant, but worse, completely confusing and frustrating for people that maybe don't have some of that technical background or the deep technical background actually writing the code. So did you just kind of brush that under the carpet, figuratively speaking? Or is there some other way you've handled that to make sure that you've, for example, got a compelling user experience for the people that don't need that stuff waved in their face? Matt Arbesfeld 13:04 Great question. And we struggled that for a while where you'd be a non technical user. And you'd you'd go into the to me like what the heck is happening so much errors and URLs and performance data? And it would just be overwhelming. And so we've made a big investment. And we see our customers do this as well in design and usability and even personalization. How do you tailor the experience to that persona that you're that you're trying to appease? So that work has really benefited our customers. And kudos to the team who's your lager team who's designed and that's a great UX around that addresses both those technical personas and the more business focused users. Jason Knight 13:42 Yeah, it's interesting, because you sometimes get the feeling that UX and design is one of the least things that people are actually thinking about when they're building some of these developer focused tools, right? So we've all seen or logged into some of these back end tools that you can look at to work out what's going wrong with whatever system and just sin either it's almost just like a console window just in a browser, or it's just like the most complicated technical thing. Like, did you always have a good design sensibility from the start? Or was that something as you kind of touched on there that you had to actually reinvent and rebuild? Whilst you were kind of in flight? Matt Arbesfeld 14:19 Yeah, we've always been a design focused company and caring about design, I'd say, actually, in high school, I thought I'd be a Pixar animator. That was my that was my intended career goal. So I've always loved writing, I always have loved creative pursuits. And, and that LogRocket we help people who are building applications. And so that's always kind of making high quality experiences has always been important to me throughout my life. But definitely, as a product matures, and you have so many users and so many features have, we've made a big investment design and UX and we see our customers do this as well. So just as a, as people who use software day in day out, we'd no longer put up with those negative experiences. If we're checking our bank account, or we're buying buying something online or even using business software, we all expect to have amazing experiences that we won't put up with negative experiences. And so I think design and UX and product is more important now than ever, we'll just keep growing in importance. Jason Knight 15:25 Yeah, I completely agree. I think that the old cliche of that type of design, lack of sensibility in this day, and age is just completely ridiculous, because like, we're all using, as you say, all these great apps all the time anyway. And we need to have some of those design patterns, boy, and I remember working with a UX guy on one of my old products in an old job, and he was a B2B platform, but all of the designs that he used to come up with new product features, or new bits of UI or whatever, he'd always steal things like bits of screenshot for, like really early prototypes from, like consumer sites and stuff like that. And I always used to make fun of him for doing that low tech and mobile phone shop site widget to put on my app or whatever, just to show me what it could look like. But then you start to realise there's actually quite a strong point to that, because it's showing you how some of that really optimised consumer design thinking can actually be inserted into an b2b product and kind of raises the bar for you a little bit as well. So definitely agree that is a critical thing to do. But obviously, to do this pivot or this expansion, you've got to do some level of due diligence to make sure that's actually going to work. And this is something that I'm assuming a lot of companies wrestle with throughout their expansion and growth, to make sure that they're actually doing the right thing. And they're not going to throw loads of money down the drain for no reason. So what kind of due diligence did you have to do to actually be confident to execute the move into product analytics alongside the front end analytics you're doing before? Matt Arbesfeld 16:54 Yeah, some people ask me, What's the hardest one of the hardest things in product? And I think the only thing harder than developing the first thing for product market fit is finding your second your second phase of product market fit. I think something a lot of product managers struggle with is you have a core product doing really well. And the business says, We need to expand our customers or we need to drive additional purchase. Yeah, what do you build? And so you build stuff, but you don't really use it. You don't know why. And so I think there's a huge problem. And the way we tackled that was, I would love to call it scientific, we were much smaller when we actually made that change. But we ended up making prototypes for a lot of what we were building, we ran user interviews, asking how much people would buy. And the biggest thing is we wanted to make an argument for ourselves of why this had to exist and why it had to be like rocket, and that's something we did for the first product is we wrote a memo saying, If I'm a customer, this is how I'm thinking about the problem. This is the job I'm trying to solve. And this is why only log I can can solve it. And I can't go to X, Y and Z to solve this problem. And so we wrote that argument, we convinced ourselves it was true. And we committed to it because with any new product, people are gonna question it today's ad because there have excuses. And that happened for our first product. But having that argument and and knowing that this is true for this set of people will give us conviction to keep going down that path. So that's what we did. And and yeah, it's definitely worked out for the second product now. Jason Knight 18:23 But have you then built like additional teams around the different use cases that you might have to serve or you serving all through one? Because I'm seeing, for example, there could be roadmap clashes when you're looking at it and said, Okay, well, we need to build X, Y, Z feature for the developer audience and A, B, C features for the product audience and who wins in our situation? So have you managed to kind of lay the teams out around those different value streams effectively? Or is it still kind of a seesaw act where you're trying to balance the needs of the competing or potentially competing user bases? Matt Arbesfeld 18:57 In the early days, we got to a point tried with one huge team, I think it was 15 engineers or something on on a single team, a team or something like that for a pizza team. But yeah, exactly. It's too many pizzas needed. So to your point, it's hard to very hard to balance and you'd end up going where the squeakiest customers went. So beginning in 2021, we split out to two teams each focused on one use case. And that was very beneficial to have that focus. And I think in general, across all parts of the business, finding ways to keep teams focused on solving one problem, or maybe two problems at the most has benefited us anonymously. Jason Knight 19:37 Yeah, no 100% Agree, focus is key. But I'm assuming you use local hockey on log rocket. So you have a full view of how people are using your own software. So you're really dug food into the max and you've not had to go and you're not installed full story on your site, for example. But one of the points of using a platform like yours is to enable data driven decision making. So you're using that data to enable you to make good decisions about the feature the product and where you might want to focus your efforts. So I guess one question that arises from that is, has there been a really key decision that you've made using the data that you collect on your own application? Like what sorts of decisions has that helped you to make that has enabled you to make good decisions for the business? Matt Arbesfeld 20:18 I can't imagine how we build good products without having having log rocket because it's just gut feeling, right? Yeah, gut feeling exactly. about it. We've all been there where you design something, and people are just not using as much as you'd like, or you launch a new say, onboarding flow, and people are not engaging. And that is, every time we launch a new feature, we're all logged rocket, watching hundreds of sessions. And then you can, it's amazing when whenever that could we use feature flagging, so we turn on the flag. And within minutes of that going out, and people start using it, we're have 10, 20, 30 Linear tickets in our task management tool to fix UX issues that we've noticed. So the amount of the speed of the feedback loop and the amount we go to get the products to be be excellent on a UX and design and engineering perspective. I'd say every product, it's benefited us. Yeah, one specific experience. And this is a little more on the technical side. But we we launched a new onboarding flow, where probably we've all built these where customers come in, they fill out some information, they click next, next, next. And there was one specific step where we noticed a big drop in conversion. And we like that should not people should not leave, that's a very simple step. And so with log rocket, we were actually able to identify, there was a specific back end request that was very slow for customers as I was going through that, that flow, and we were able to the engineering team addressed that issue. And then conversion rate went back to normal. And so that's where we see a lot of value for our customers is when they launch some kind of new flow. The results are not quite what they expected. And they're digging into understand the why behind that. Jason Knight 22:03 Yeah, as you were talking now as imagining this kind of WarGames, NASA style video wall with like, 150 screens on it all looking at different sessions, so that you could see all this stuff happening in real time. It'd be like the ultimate 24/7 News experience or something like that. I'm hoping you're gonna build that once everyone's back in the office. Matt Arbesfeld 22:22 Yeah, that's good. Yeah, that could be the third product. Yeah, I like that. Jason Knight 22:28 Well, you say that actually, I did see one BI tool once that has the most pointless but also most glamorous looking data warehouse part of the application where you rather than just having a table with a list of stuff with showing you the status of data loads or whatever. Everything's got a 3d rotating, almost holographic looking. As I I bet that demos fantastically for every single person they ever show the application to completely useless, but my God, did it look amazing. So you never know that video wall could work. Matt Arbesfeld 22:57 Yeah, no, I think I can do for products is important as well. We just like to make the consumer reference again, just like we choose. This sheet is based off what looks well, I mean, even now, which has a prettier interface and the best visualisations Jason Knight 23:12 Yeah, add a bit of shine. But given the fact that your tool offers screen recordings and analytics, and originally came from the engineering world, there's stuff there that can hit as far as I can tell all parts of the classic product trio. So there's stuff in there for UX people to use the stuff in there for product managers to use their stuff and of engineers to use. So do you think that a tool like that can really help to bridge some of the gaps that sometimes appear between those teams? Because, of course, no one wants disconnected teams, right? You talked before about how you want to kind of bring teams together more? Do you think a tool like LogRocket can really help to bring those teams together and help them make decisions together? Matt Arbesfeld 23:49 Yeah, absolutely. If you, I think a lot about you look at what happens in the backend space. And there's now this DevOps movement that's connecting the operations people and the developers. And so yeah, we're seeing something very similar when it comes to product people and engineers is, when you're a product person, you're responsible for the experience in general, not just the features that are going out. It's is it performance? Is it usable? Is it are there errors? So as a product person, you are just as chops for the technical stuff as your engineers. And as for the design, and so bringing all that data together in a unified platform is so important to build the best possible user experience and so siloed data, just like in DevOps, it doesn't work when you're thinking about product experience. Jason Knight 24:35 Absolutely. But you said before this along the same theme that you think is important to quote, unify engineering and product. Now, some might say and I might even agree with them that you want to have a really good collaborative relationship, but ultimately keep it separated and develop almost like a healthy creative tension between the product and engineering functions rather than having it all kind of subservient one way or the other. But just to clarify what do you mean by unify engineering and product? And why do you think it's so important? Matt Arbesfeld 25:06 Yeah, absolutely and I, for what it's worth, I agree with you completely that if engineering and product are not clashing a little bit, you're probably not building the best products. But what's important, at least in my mind is that you should be working from the same source of truth of information. And, yeah, if the product people are saying, Oh, our analytics data is saying this, and the engineers are saying, No, it looks like it's working well, you just can't make good decisions together. It's like, in any relationship, you need to have the same values for product engineering, you need to be working the same data, or else you can, then you're just disagreeing on a fundamental level. And so when I talk about unification, it's about using the same data and making decisions off the same set of ground truths. But absolutely, I if you're not sort of, I wouldn't say arguing but sort of have tension with your engineering leader, as a product leader, there's probably something that you should, you should think about more. Jason Knight 26:02 But you're also a Thiel fellow, as in Peter Thiel in the Thiel Foundation. Now we've all heard of Peter Thiel. But what does a Thiel fellowship give you and how has it helped you join your LogRocket journey? Matt Arbesfeld 26:14 So for those who don't know, the the Thiel fellowship is basically a programme that says, college isn't necessary, you can start a great business before college, or you can drop out of college and college basically slowing us down from pursuing innovation in the world. So Peter Thiel started the teal fellowship to essentially invest in potential entrepreneurs to start businesses and in some ways prove his hypothesis. And so actually Aetherium, for example, was started by a teal fellow, or, for those who doubt was the teal fellow. So it's been a great programme and a great community of people who you also are started companies in their youth and have been able to kind of commiserate together and all the challenges of starting a business. Jason Knight 26:57 So there's kind of a strong community that you've kind of built up around that do you kind of give each other then support, and I'm assuming as a funding, or anything like that, was it more of a mentorship thing rather than like a funding type circle. Matt Arbesfeld 27:11 So it's just they give you a small amount of actually a fully grant, so they don't even invest in the company. It's a grant a no strings, attached grants. And so that was great for starting out the business, sort of not needing initial funding off the bat. But the most value I've gotten absolutely is from that community. And then almost like if you go to, like Harvard or MIT, it's kind of a stamp of approval, it's nice to have that you'd like legitimacy and helps with some recruiting or customer relationships, when you have that kind of stamp there. Jason Knight 27:43 Yeah, there's kind of a dark side to that kind of closed club of colleges. And like the kind of you kind of get these arguments around all these people, though, only hiring people from the same three universities or something like that. And that's their idea of like, has to be that because if it's not that, then it's not gonna be good enough. But that obviously then potentially locks out bunch of people from different backgrounds, you may be going to get into those colleges. So is that something that you feel? I mean, I don't know how your company's data but like, is that something that you feel is is still going on? And something that some of these fellowships either contribute to or can help with? Or do? Is that not something that you've seen yourself? Matt Arbesfeld 28:22 Yeah, I think that's a great point of something like Harvard obviously cost a tonne of money, the great thing to fellowship, it's should if it's designed, well, it should be purely merit based. And so yeah, I think it's a great opportunity to your point of letting people from all backgrounds and all sort of use use their merit and ability, rather than their access, just sort of get, get more options in life. And so that's something like as we as we recruit in our company, we look for that a lot is not necessary, where they came from, or did they even graduate college but more their ability and in a more objective way to to measure someone's skill and ability to contribute to the the overall business. Jason Knight 29:06 Data driven decision making, again. Speaking of which was one piece of advice you'd give someone today, whether they're a client of yours or not, someone who's wanting to make a few better informed data informed decisions that they can, there's some way that I can get started in doing that, and getting down that path of not just doing everything by gut? Matt Arbesfeld 29:28 It definitely depends on the problem you're trying to solve and sort of the, the area working with, but you're absolutely log rock, it could be a great solution for you. But there's, I think that first thing for any product person the best day that always comes from talking to customers. So if you're not talking to customers, and understanding at least the initial problem, that's always the starting point and then understanding Yeah, Okay, what else do I need beyond that to to really fully understand the customer problems? Jason Knight 29:58 But how do you then actually commend bringing that together because of course, you've then got the qualitative data, you've got the quantitative data that you capture, but then also kind of somewhere in between when you're talking about the screen recordings as well, right? Because you can go in there. And it's effectively like watching a UX focus group, but just done at scale, right? So like, how do you or have you been in a situation where you've kind of tied that together from front to back? So like, where you've spoken to people about a thing, you maybe built the thing maybe even checked to see how those people then dealt with the thing and try and get that unified data experience from front to back? Or is it always more tactical based on what you're looking at at the time? Matt Arbesfeld 30:39 So we recently started redesigning one of our areas of the product and what inspired that as we were talking to our product customer, actually. And we said, Oh, do you use this feature set, and we had them open up their screen and walk through it. They said, Oh, this is confusing. I don't know what this means or, and so we then went and watched a bunch of session replays of that persona. And we saw very similar struggle with a lot of those users. And so we were able to build 15/20 examples of that same problem that this one customer had, had explained on the call. And we were able to even build out analytics around that. And how long was it taking people to use this? Or how often were they using it. So we had a narrative all the way from, here's this specific user who had a problem, here are 20 actual videos of that problem. And then here are actual stats that back it up. And we were able to form this great narrative that we were going to the engineers with, good the other executive team. And once you see that kind of story, you don't, you don't reject it, it's you get the investment or you get the you get the resources. And so I think if you're, if you're someone in that position, where you're proposing, what to work on, it's great to have all those data sources work together to build the best possible story. Jason Knight 31:52 No, absolutely. Where can people find you after this if they want to talk about LogRocket, or Thiel Fellowships or any of the other topics we spoken about tonight? Matt Arbesfeld 32:01 Yeah, so you can go to LogRocket.com. I'm also on Twitter. So feel free to direct message me. I'm not on Instagram yet. I'm not that I'm not that young, unfortunately. So yeah, feel free to tweet at me or tweet @LogRocket or direct message me but always happy to chat product too. If you have any ideas you want to run by me love to interact with entrepreneurs and product people and engineers. Jason Knight 32:25 Fair enough. I'll make sure to link that in. And hopefully you get a few people asking you on Twitter and bugging you to go on Instagram and Tiktok. Well, that's been a fantastic chat. So obviously really happy to have some of your time to talk about some of the important issues around making good data driven decisions and some of the ways you might do that. Hopefully, we can stay in touch. But yeah, that's for now. Thanks for taking the time. Matt Arbesfeld 32:47 Awesome. Thank you so much. Jason Knight 32:51 As always, thanks for listening. I hope you found the episode inspiring and insightful. If you did again, I can only encourage you to hop over to OneKnightInProduct.com, check out some of my other fantastic guests, sign up to the mailing list or subscribe on your favourite podcast app and make sure you share your friends so you and they can never miss another episode again. I'll be back soon with another inspiring guest but as for now, thanks and good night.