Jason Knight 0:00 Hi, and welcome to the show on a day where I have gone nano viral on Twitter and LinkedIn and my notifications are lighting up like Christmas trees but never fear. I'm soldiering on and on this episode, we'll be talking about the Internet of Things. But before we do that, do remember to pop over to https://www.oneknightinproduct.com and have a look around. If you haven't subscribed to podcast yet, make sure you do that on your favourite podcast platform. And make sure to share the podcast with your friends so they can check it out too. So yes, the Internet of Things. Now I'm a bit too old for that stuff. But I can appreciate a good startup story as much as anyone so buckle up as we talk about working in product for one of the biggest names in IoT before starting a company to solve the types of problems that they weren't going to touch. If you want to find out whether my guests will have the audacity to try to fundraise like Adam, WeWork, stay tuned... to One Knight in Product. Jason Knight 1:00 So my guest tonight is Yana Welinder. Yana's is a former lawyer, turned law professor and strategist and policy maker term Product Manager term company founder who says that a pivotal moment in her product career was releasing HTTPS on Wikipedia (citation needed). Before embarking on a career journey. Yana says she started out as a fairy princess children's party entertainer, I can assure you, there's not a wand in sight tonight. But she's focusing on sprinkling fairy dust on the wonderful world of the internet of things to try to save us all from stupid smart stuff. She's done that as the head of product at If This Then That. And now she's doing it herself with her own startup where she boldly claims to make everything usable by everyone. Hi, Yana. How are you tonight? Yana Welinder 1:37 I'm doing really well. Thanks so much for having me. Jason Knight 1:40 No problem. All right. So first things first, you are the CEO and co founder at Kraftful, which as we say boldly claims to be able to make everything usable by everyone. But let's get specific. I'm part of everyone. So what problem does Kraftful solve for me? Yana Welinder 1:55 Yeah, so what we hopefully solve for you is to make sure that all of your devices become easier to use over time, all of your I should say connected devices. Generally, the problem we solve though is sort of your the secondary effect of the problem we solve which is we provide tools for hardware companies that develop connected products like smart home appliances, wearables connected fitness devices. And so we make those products, we help them make those products more user friendly to contextualise that a little bit more right now, everything around us is becoming connected. But then connected hardware is really difficult to use. It's only accessible to early adopters. And so one reason that there are that kind of problems is that there's so few off the shelf tools for IoT companies. And then most significantly, they tend to be late to using analytics in their product development. So that's sort of the the biggest problem that we solve today is that we've created a solution that makes it really easy for connected hardware companies to use analytics to improve their experiences so that more people like you can use those connected hardware. Jason Knight 3:02 Or not people like me, I'm very Luddite when it comes to connected devices. In fact, I've got two little echo dots on my desk here. And they're both got the microphones turned off. But it sounds like you're very focused in on, not so much selling to me, but selling to people that sell to me. So you're building some kind of platform that? I mean, you touched on the analytics there. I guess that's part of it. But is it primarily analytics that you're using there to kind of use machine learning to improve experiences? Or are there other facets to what you're trying to enable with your platform? Yana Welinder 3:31 There are other facets over time. But our first sort of flagship product is an analytics tool for IoT product managers, that helps them improve usability of those products. Jason Knight 3:45 When you say then analytics for the product, people making those devices like what sorts of things are you analysing? Is it as simple as usage analytics and trying to give them the most insight out of that, or there other things that you can analyse that can help them make good decisions? Yana Welinder 3:58 Yeah, it's a little bit of both. So it is definitely usage analytics, where we show them where users get stuck, you know, where users struggle when they're trying to connect that piece of hardware, which features that users most frequently use left, they can make those particularly discoverable in the product. But then, the other things that we do is we have usability recommendations that are very specific to the world of IoT based on the data. And so we can tell you things like if your users get stuck, connecting your device, just the kind of things that we've seen in our platform, does that automatically. Here are some things that are usually the problem so that you can improve the experience. Jason Knight 4:42 Excellent. And what are some of the main usability factors that you see with IoT devices then? Because in my simple head, and again, I'm pretty much a leader in these areas, but I pretty much just expect about a shout at them or clap my hands or something and they do it but I'm assuming that there are some way more complicated devices out there than that. So what sort of things do you see with some of these devices that you're working with? Yana Welinder 5:04 I think the biggest piece is that, obviously IoT is unlocking a lot of new user experiences. But at the core, you're using a digital interface to communicate with a physical device. So in some sense, you're replacing physical interfaces that used to control that device and remote parts, that replacement, the new digital interface tends to not be as easy to use as the original physical interface, which is the problem, right? And there was a few news reports actually, yesterday about a Swedish study that got picked up internationally, showing that kind of the physical buttons in the car are much more user friendly than the digital interface. And I would say, that's probably the biggest reason for that it's not so much that it is physical versus digital, of course, it is much easier to be able to find a button without never having to take your eyes off the road, right. But the fact that the interface itself is so difficult to use means that there's just such a huge gap. I think, when you introduce a big physical display, that you can put a digital display that you can put lots of things on, companies tend to use that opportunity to essentially clutter that with every customer that they can possibly put there. Right. And that makes the experience much harder. Yeah, I think that you know, long term, there's actually an opportunity to make devices more user friendly than they used to be with the physical interfaces. That's the feature I'm really excited about. But that's sort of that's getting ahead of myself. Jason Knight 6:33 Yeah, well, I went into my brother in law's Tesla yesterday, and, or the day before yesterday, and was very, very impressed and slightly confused by the large tablet on the dashboard, which did basically everything. And then I got into my car afterwards and saw these big, clunky buttons and felt all better again, but you know, again, pretty much a Luddite. Everyone is a pretty bold target market, right? Like you said that you're trying to make everything usable by everyone. But all the product marketing literature out there will say, find a niche, go small, prove out go big after that, once you've proved that you've got something that you can scale it. So was that something that you did to start with? Or do you feel that there's been a lot of value in going back from the start going wide and going for that everyone, Yana Welinder 7:15 so we're not actually going for the everyone. We're going for some very specific targets in the IoT space, the making everything usable by everyone. That's our big mission. In the end, the raffle would have been successful. That's the world, you will see what we're actually fairly specific about, we actually started very narrowly with connected thermostat market and went after that. And then we expanded to smart home and to other kinds of connected products. And now we're sort of looking at connected fitness and wearables. So we're being very specific about which market we're going after, even though our mission is very grand. Jason Knight 7:55 Well, Geoffrey Moore be delighted. Yeah. And I think it's really interesting, having a big vision and nothing that you can get proud about. And something that obviously, a lot of product, people talk about that vision and trying to get that narrative, and that kind of better future that they can imagine. So I'm sure that's easier said than done in some products. But in yours, at least you've got that big vision, which is good. But you've worked in IoT Internet of Things for a bit. You worked in product for If This Then That, obviously a big, well known IoT company from before. But you weren't big in IoT before that, in fact, you worked in a few places. I know you worked in strategy for Wikimedia. So I guess got a few questions about that. But firstly, what was it that got you yourself, specifically into IoT in the first place, like did if this and that just sort of come up at the right time, and it looked like an interesting opportunity, or have wearables and connected devices always been something that you're really curious and passionate about? Yana Welinder 8:51 Yeah, my big passion, I would say and thinking about kind of my career, from different places, including across different su mentioned careers, has been about siccing user experiences, him slaves. And so I believe in media. One thing that I focused on was to think through how to make readership particularly easy and how to avoid that big wall of text and make it something that people can do on their mobile phones. And so similarly, every time I've looked at opportunities, it's always been identifying a big, essentially usability problem. And then addressing that, you mentioned, you know, I spent some time in academia. Similarly, there my research focused on how to replace Terms of Service and privacy policies with UX. Right, so really, this has been my theme all along. And IoT was an interesting space in that it felt like the space where everything is becoming connected chipsets are becoming really cheap, and lots of folks are thinking about how to put chips in everything. And yet, these experiences are so often so broken And so it was definitely a place where I tried to think about that problem from a particular angle, which is to make all of these devices interoperable and unlock experiences that users really wanted to have. And I think what I realised was that there's actually a problem I want to solve, even closer to the user, which is to make it easier for them to use those devices in the first place before they even tried to make them interoperable. And that's kind of what I'm solving, not quaffle. Jason Knight 10:26 Oh, there you go. So a big personal mission there. But that then leads on to my second question, and we've touched on it just then sort of the different types of roles that you've been working on before, which is obviously great to have all of those different variety of experiences that you could draw on. And I presume that's very helpful when you move into a founder ship, which we'll talk about in a second. But I guess before we talk about the founder ship, what was it that specifically got you into product management? Because you know, for example, based on what you said, you could have just as easily gone into something like UX, which is related, but kind of different. Yana Welinder 10:58 Yeah, you know, kind of, as I mentioned, I've always been driven by experiences that are broken and how they can be invented. I think the other piece is that I have a really big creative drive. I like making things I like designing things, as you mentioned, UX, but also, I paint in my in my spare time. So I just I like that. Oh, wow. And I think at some point, I realised that the best profession of having a big impact in terms of actually improving user experience across a lot of things is product management and entrepreneurship. Yeah, one of those two. And I think UX does solve that problem, but it for a particular product. And what I really wanted to do was to have that impact across a big area. And so once I had that realisation, I did two things, I started various companies on the side. And then I started transitioning my career into product management. And the second was much easier than the first. So I got there much faster my transformation into product and like a year, by comparison, I started my first company in 2010 took me almost a decade to become like a full time entrepreneur. So I think some of that has been kind of opportunistic, and some of that has been very mindful about what are the things that I like doing and what kind of impact I want to have in the world? Jason Knight 12:19 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. But let's then talk my third question, which is, luckily, about going into entrepreneurship, then. So obviously, you've worked for other people said you had your side hustles. I'm assuming that some of those side hustles have now been parked, because you've got your your new thing. But, of course, you've then gone into product management, you've gone out of product management, and you've built your own company, in a similar but maybe slightly different space to If This Then That because you know, I guess you're not doing all of the things exactly the same as they're doing. But I guess the question is, what was it specifically that made you decide to break out of working for companies and started to build your own thing, and actually doubling down to be a founder and entrepreneur? Yana Welinder 12:59 I think it's always been identifying a good problem to solve. I'm very much I think it's really important to validate problems. And so with, with every kind of side hustle, that's what I've been trying to do. I've been trying to break down the business into chunks. And so first validating, is there a problem than validating a solution that I have without starting to build that solution? What are some different ways I can validate that? So it's always been kind of this, like, MVP mindset, but applied to the business as a whole? Yeah. And so I guess it's really just taken me this long to get to a problem that got validated in the way I wanted it to be validated before I felt compelled to go and solid. Jason Knight 13:43 So is that something that you felt that you could have potentially sold within IFTTT, is that how you call it within the company? Just IFT? IF-T-T-T? Is that something that you think you could have sold within ft? Or do you feel that that was something that they just weren't going after? And that you had to go and start a new company to do that? Yana Welinder 13:58 Yeah. Great question. Yes. And then by the way, it is it is all of those Ts are silent. So it is indeed, IFT... is how we would pronounce it. But yes, I would say that if the solving a really big problem, which is that there is a need for interoperability between all of these different devices, and there are some projects, or slash products out there that are trying to solve that for very specific things like smart home or connected fitness or specific aspects of it. And if there's much more general, and it's trying to make everything interoperable, which ultimately, I think it needs to happen. The problem that I wanted to solve was much more on how do we make all of these devices usable, and that that was so far off from the original ft mission that I did not feel like it's something that I could do there. I needed to go and solve that myself. Jason Knight 14:49 Oh, there you go. But it's fair to say that a lot of product managers or heads of product in your case can be really good executors by even as they rise up the ranks and take over teams, they Maybe suffer a little bit from the execution bias, like they're all about building and doing that next thing, but they're maybe not seen as the senior partners at the big table. And that's a thing that's come up a few times on the podcast like that representation of really senior strategic leadership from the product side of the camp. But obviously, you've got that strategy background yourself from some of the roles that you've had in past, for example, Wikimedia. So I guess that's kind of giving you a bit of a leg up there, but have you personally found being a CEO, a natural fit for you and for your talents? Or did you have to really work at it to kind of get into that mindset? Yana Welinder 15:35 I think it's a bit of both. So first of all, you know, even though I have held strategic roles, and I think I'm pretty good at strategic thinking, you know, like studying data coming up with product strategy. At the core, I'm a doer, I've always been learning by doing. So there's, there's only so much time I can devote to strategizing before I feel the urge to put things, things to action and try them out. I mean, I think there's definitely people who are much more comfortable, just strategizing without executing, and I'm just not one of them. As a CEO, I do think that there's, you know, as a CEO, you get to do all the things. And it's interesting, you know, having been head of product, in touching so many areas, as you do as a head of product, it's then interesting to them, you get to experience how it has to be a seal and touch literally everything, there's, you know, there's lots of subject areas that I did not touch as a product manager, like, fundraising operations, and things like that. And so I think what I'm realising is that I enjoy the product tasks the most. But I do enjoy the novelty and the figuring out piece of being a CEO and having to figure out how to do all of that for the very first time. So I think it's a bit of a combination, where I know, I know where my strengths are. And I also know that I enjoy this general problem solving. Jason Knight 16:54 But it's presumably pretty heavy learning that stuff on the job, especially once you've got funding and you've got a runway and you've got start to get your first clients and you're really starting to try to make a company out of it. And not just an idea. So it was that Then something where you felt it was important to get, for example, good people on the board that could help you out or good colleagues and people that you could bring into the company, or are you been really just trying to work it all out yourself based on whatever you can do at the time to get over the challenges that you see in front of you at that particular time? Yana Welinder 17:22 I think you know, I'm a big believer in doubling down on your strengths, and then filling the gaps with other people around. So I think I've done a lot of work to try to figure out what are my unique strengths? And then what are some things that I can delegate. So I have brought in folks to help me with operations, obviously, with engineering, but also with sales. And I've been really focused on product and product strategy. I do think that the other piece that I realised is that I'm pretty good at that generalists aspect of it. And so that's also something that I have brought in to help I have chief of staff that helps me with a lot of the generalism, too. And I yeah, I found that most that that very much matches my personality and my work style, which was really critical. But I do think that you definitely need to surround yourself with great people. Jason Knight 18:17 Well, yeah, succeed for other people, as well as for your own efforts, I guess, the product managers mantra, but you talked a lot about about fundraising there. And of course, that's always a pain for people to have to go out there and start to attract people and get people interested in no idea and believing their idea. And let's show that we work guy who seems to just be able to just do anything, get money just thrown at him. So that's a pretty cool story. But you've got some pretty interesting people behind you from the looks of it. I think you're you went through Y Combinator. You've got Google on board, I think, and a lot of other interesting looking investors. So it feels like you're probably pretty good at fundraising. But was it very hard to pitch clawfoot? Or do you think that people were really interested in you, given how hot the space is? And also with your experience as well that they felt that you were super credible from the start? Like, how hard was it to get some of those people on board? Yana Welinder 19:06 I would say that fundraising generally wasn't the easiest thing. Except for that we were guide never is. We actually I think we're pretty disadvantaged by what space we were operating in, because a lot of investors have had pretty bad hardware out like outcomes, investing in connected hardware in the past. And so that's been something that I've had to deal with. And I had to kind of start off the conversation by almost saying, Hey, we're a software company, building things for hardware companies. We're not a hardware company. But generally speaking, you know, all the things you hear about, like fundraising for female founders. That's definitely true. It's definitely much harder fundraising as a as a female founder. The questions you get are trying to diminish your business rather than treat it like a allowing you to paint the opportunity and really get to him to do that. So you'll really need to kind of reframe the questions, try to find the people who you think are going to be good, good supporters for you. And then for me, and for gravel, I was actually trying to find a group of diverse investors. Yeah, not because I thought they would be more likely to get behind us. But because I wanted to have people who would appreciate that diversity is important in this space, that connected hardware is a space where it is very much built by white dudes as it is right now. And if you look at the users who enjoy connected hardware the most, they tend to be white dudes, too. And I'm sure those two things are not completely independent of each other. And so I think it's important to, to bring in more diversity in this space to ultimately make sure that everything is usable by everyone to go back to our mission. Jason Knight 20:57 But absolutely here here. And I guess, if you're feeling very feisty, you could give some of those white dudes electric shocks when they tried to use it too much, or something like that, just to try and drive the numbers down. But just for the record, then how confident Would you feel walking in after failure on a scale of we work and asking for money from investors for another real estate type company? Like, would that be something that you would just walk in there and think, oh, yeah, I've got this yourself? No, Yana Welinder 21:24 absolutely not. I mean, like, a female founder, a founder of colour, like, No, we would never be able to feel like that and ask for money. Again, as it stands right now, you can barely do that with just successes behind you. And it's absolutely not the case. So it is quite interesting to watch that unfold and see the outrage right? From the diverse founder community, generally. So I don't think yeah, it's absolutely not something I wouldn't be able to do. I don't think. Jason Knight 21:53 And the reverse outrage from the white dude bros that are out there saying, Oh, this is just fine as well, like, it's something that they've not even had this inkling of a thought anywhere in their head, that there's could be anything wrong with this or that it sends any kind of message. But you know, I'm sure I lose all that money, too, and then come back for a third go as well. So I guess we'll just have to keep looking at TechCrunch or whatever. Yana Welinder 22:15 I mean, I think just one more thought on this. I do think that, you know, startups are always hard to build. And so yeah, there are lots of issues with how he was building his business. But you did build something. And so I think ultimately, while it is a little obscene, how easy it is for him to raise money a second time and how hard it would be for someone who had built even a successful business, and didn't have that background to do that. But at the same time, maybe maybe that's kind of my entrepreneurial self coming in there and being like, but what he did was really hard. And so I have a little bit of respect for that, despite all of the things that he clearly did that, you know, I would never do. Jason Knight 22:57 Here, well, you keep fighting a good fight. But thinking of your actual product, then I mean, it sounds like you're doing a lot more on the software side and the data side at the moment rather than building anything specifically hardware related yourself. So does that mean that what you're working on at the moment is very similar to just general digital product management, that there are no real differences from the perspective of what you're building, it's just what's coming in, that's different, or there are additional complexities that you see working in this space. Yana Welinder 23:23 I think it is very similar to traditional product management for our product, because it is just software. But I think that we have to empathise with the complexity of the customer we're building for him connected hardware then has all of that complexity where the reason they don't use analytics. And the reason they haven't optimised the software is that there's all of these other things they have to do from hardware perspective, supply chain, you know, all of the all of the different pieces. Yeah. And so we have to emphasise with that and not be too confident in the space we come from, from the software space purely and be like, you know, this is easy, just do this. But Jason Knight 24:08 that's really interesting, though, because I'd also assume and you've touched on it yourself a little bit that there are some very opinionated diehard types out there in the IoT space, the types of people that are getting NFC chips put into their arms and like have their entire houses wired up. And there's a really passionate community out there. Now, obviously, you've worked for a BIG IoT company. So you've got some credibility in there. And you've talked a little bit about empathy as well. I guess the question that comes from that is from building an empathy and I guess, by extension, credibility, perspective, are there any techniques that you've used to really try and double down on that and try and make sure that you're really there in the heads and the hearts of your target audience? Yana Welinder 24:48 Yeah, I think you nailed it right there. IoT has lots of loud I would say early adopters, that the voices of either the needs of that the mainstream music and mainstream users are just starting to use connected hardware. So they tend to be much less technical. I think the key is trying to closely study usage data, which is why we do what we do. Yeah. And try to decipher the needs of the mainstream rather than just listening to the early adopters in customer support channels or social media, wherever they tend to be mouth. But in broad strokes, right, like early adopters will ask for more features. In the less technical users will need better usability, though they may not actually ask for it. And so you can't just ignore early adopters and their needs, because they're ultimately going to be your champions. So you need to have empathy for both of those two personas. And that usually means investing in usability of those core features, making the primary screen sparse so that mainstream users can easily find and navigate those core features. But then also providing power user settings, and then having those Power User Settings be in a place where they're not cluttering the home view. But then, you know, instead present them in logical places where power users will be able to find what they're looking for. And power users are usually okay with looking for things, and having, you know, having to navigate a few taps away. So I think that's, that's essentially it, like you have to empathise with both, at least right now. And then once the mainstream audience becomes more established in the connected hardware space, then maybe actually, early adopters will not be something you'll need to design for as much. Jason Knight 26:32 But there's a really interesting parallel here, actually, that just came to mind as you were talking, and it's around some of the cliches you get around, for example, b2b product management selling into the enterprise, and maybe with a really a non diverse portfolio of clients that will one type of client or you've only got a handful that represent almost all of your revenue or something like that. And they kind of bully you around a bit. And they force you to build features that you probably don't want to build if you want to go big, but you have to build it because they're the only people giving you money at the moment. And all of that sort of, I'd say good stuff, but not really good. But that stuff. If you had to prioritise one or the other for sort of the next three months of your roadmap six months or your roadmap, are you just trying to get a good mix in there? Or are you really focusing on one or the other to get you that growth and get you to move to the next phase where you can then make the next good decisions? Yana Welinder 27:21 I think you really have to do a mix, I think you have to do a mix of both. And luckily, for most parts, the technical early adopter versus the or in that same camp, as you articulated the b2b technical buyer that isn't really thinking about the real needs of the of their users who will have to figure out how to use that product. There's usually some features to be built there. And they're usually have kind of a priority of those so we can figure out what's their top thing that you can, we can give to them and make sure that they're happy for a bit. And then luckily, on the other side, usually you don't have to build a tonne of features. It's more about figuring out, how do you make the features you have more easy to use. And it's almost more about minimalism, and cutting down on features that are presented and figuring out the usability aspects. So it's, there's almost two different types of exercises. But I think you kind of have to do both simultaneously, while making sure that you're not doing the full list of features that the allowed early adopters or technical buyers are interested in. So that you have space to do to focus on usability as well. Jason Knight 28:30 Absolutely. We don't need more unusable apps. But one thing that's come up a lot more recently, especially with some of the stories around air tags, and people getting stalked and tracked and all that sort of stuff is the problem of potentially misuse or ethical violations of IoT and the fact that some of this stuff can maybe go a little bit too far be easily abused and cause bad outcomes. So is that something that you and your platform feel that you can help with? Or is that something that's really much more on the heads of the manufacturers and something that they need to look after? Yana Welinder 29:04 Yeah, I think to some extent, we can help with that, particularly around things like data collection. And minimising data collection, which is our product is very much designed to protect privacy, user privacy as much as possible. So we don't collect unnecessary data. But we make it really easy for you to use some amount of data that's not personally identifiable, to improve usability. So that's one opportunity for us to make sure that products are built more ethically. But I think just like with any products, it is really important to think through how IoT devices can be misused. And so you mentioned air tags. I think that's a great example, where they actually done that pretty well. They thought through the risks and built and built in stocking protection where they will like notify a user, if their film is tracked by an air tag for an air tag is following their film for too long. But then, of course, I think not everyone's going to have apples resources to think through the edge cases and have you know teams that can work on preventing and all of those edge cases. So I think the kind of the real important thing is to, you know, try to respond quickly if others identify issues like digital rights groups are always working on identifying issues. And so being open to that kind of feedback, and then acting quickly on that, as well as you know, trying to think ahead and think about ways in which your products can be misused as well, of course, Jason Knight 30:24 yeah, thinking about how it's going to be misused is obviously something that people probably not that keen to do, because everyone wants to live in positive land. But it's definitely something that's come up a few times talking to other people around these sort of areas is that idea that try and think of the worst case scenario or as one guy that interviewed said, like, try and think about how your device could end up in a black mirror episode. And what would that Black Mirror episode do? And then that's the thing that you maybe want to go and think about, take a look at. Yeah, but you talked before this about curiosity and product building. So what's the latest trend, either in IoT in general or just around the internet that's really peeking your interest at the moment or getting you excited. Yana Welinder 31:03 I think there's just so much interesting innovation in this space in the connected fitness space, and wearables and smart home space. This week, I've been meeting with some really amazing IoT companies here in Scandinavia. So just to give you a few examples, next week, I'm meeting with this company that called Audio do here here in Sweden, they're backed by some really amazing music producers. And they're developing this audio technology that enhances and adjusts headphones based on each individual user's hearing, which is really cool. So you'd be able to kind of get a much more interesting music experience. Another cool company that I visited last week, is a Danish company called Air effects. They're developing a device for training the lungs so that folks can get fit and avoid kind of that terrible feeling you get when you're pushing your limits while exercising. Generally, I guess we've seen a lot of interests for graphical analytics from companies developing specifically wearables and connected fitness products. So I think that generally there's just so much opportunity in that in that industry, because exercise can work much better when it is personalised when it's done remotely. So you don't need to waste time travelling to the gym and try to find an instructor that you like, and that you can instead kind of just opportunistically exercise on your own schedule. And when you have time I've been myself and early peloton user, and I've been using it kind of every morning for years, but I think there's now so many new companies developing you know, peloton for boxing peloton for rowing peloton for golf peloton for coladas so you can find the company and product that really focuses on the exercise that you really like. And I think ultimately, it's going to make us all much healthier overall. And once we see the full potential of that industry. Jason Knight 32:48 No, absolutely. Although I'm starting to get a bit embarrassed to thinking about my own limits and feel like I should probably get to the gym at some point. But just to wrap up, then what's one piece of advice, given your background and the variety of experiences that you've had, and then going into product and then moving into founding a company and following your passion? What's one piece of advice you'd give a budding entrepreneur who's been building stuff for someone else for all their career so far, and they want to go and build their own thing now? How should they get started? Or what should they consider? Yana Welinder 33:17 I think I mean, I kind of alluded to this earlier. But I think, you know, once you've identified the problem that you are really curious about solving, I think the key thing is to then figure out what's that right validation process. So what's the fastest way to validate that there's, there's a problem before you sink time into figuring out the right solution rate and and kind of a problem oriented and then validating the problem? What's the fastest way to validate solutions before before building them full on and then spending time that's kind of how we've built crapple We've been very focused on building Mbps or even less than Mbps and thinking about what are some off the shelf things we can strap together, validate that it works and then start replacing services with with our own technology. We've been very much focused on that. And I would say that that's key to building a business. Jason Knight 34:10 No code revolution continues. Well, hopefully that'll be inspirational for some of the listeners out there. And they can start thinking about what they could be building as well. But where can people find you after this? If they want to find out more about craft or about the Internet of Things or maybe see if you've got any of that fairy dust kicking around? Yana Welinder 34:29 I think the best best way is probably to reach out to me on Twitter. That's probably where I'm the most active. So that's Jana tweets, where I think you and I connected as well. So you can probably attest to that being active channel of mine. But yeah, reach out to me on the tweets. Jason Knight 34:48 Well, I made sure to link that all into the show notes. And yeah, hopefully you'll start getting some pings and bleeps as all your notifications light up and all the devices in your house go wild. Well, that's been a fantastic chat. So obviously read Glad we could find a time and talk about some of the interesting issues around IoT and entrepreneurship. Obviously, we'll stay in touch. But yeah, that's for now. Thanks for taking the time. Yana Welinder 35:08 Thanks, Jason. This is great. Really, really appreciate the conversation. Jason Knight 35:14 As always, thanks for listening. I hope you found the episode inspiring and insightful. If you did again, I can only encourage you to pop over to https://www.oneknightinproduct.com, check out some of my other fantastic guests sign up for the mailing list or subscribe on your favourite podcast app and make sure you share your friends so you and they can never miss another episode again. I'll be back soon with another inspiring guest but as for now, thanks and good night.